Mastiff question..

About Nova, strategies and tactics

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Kargard
Assault Legionnaire
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:01 am

Mastiff question..

Postby Kargard » Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:41 am

I was just browsing nova unit charts and noticed mastiff mega tank has 6 agility,while pitbull has 3 and close assault just 2.
Um,isnt it bit weird that the fattest largest tank has more agility then the small swift tanks?even greyhound scout tank has just 5..

Maur13
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Re: Mastiff question..

Postby Maur13 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:08 pm

Well, that's NOVA :D

Anyway, Mastiffs are not very good units anyway, compared to costs (and DNA legions). Someone should kill DNA indirect attack or something.

kirov
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Re: Mastiff question..

Postby kirov » Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:35 pm

I guess that Mastiffs are just supposed to be ultimate tanks and we can only wonder why they don't fly...

I concur that about DNA - they're way too strong. Someone should some day do something about it.

Kargard
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Re: Mastiff question..

Postby Kargard » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:10 am

Yeah..personally id kill DNA's anti-air..people couldnt really bring 20 stacks of DNA's if couple of divebombers/morph divebombers could wipe them all out.
However,i dont think we can hope for that in nova..they didnt touch it in 3 years.we might talk the tiberius to make it to subversion maybe.

out of topic,i think ill just start playing mainly subversion..i can see how flustrating can the nova get as everyone starts to get huge number of units..

kirov
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Re: Mastiff question..

Postby kirov » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:00 pm

Have you some experience with Subversion?

I like this idea of high maintenance and advisors, I also appreciate strong Symbiots... but those stealth... You know, I was thinking about it and came to conclusion there is nothing you can do to protect yourself (let's say, your scepters) once your enemy has this tech. Those subv. techs allow you to conquer Severus from Aragon in one turn. I'm exaggerating, but shrewd strategy and tactics can be hampered in this situation and it may end in that that the guy whogets these techs first - wins. Disclaimer - I have never played Subversion. :)

Kargard
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Re: Mastiff question..

Postby Kargard » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:42 pm

Well i posted something of this in the email i sent,but in case other people read this..

id say that first bigger usage of stealth units could be seen as late as 5040,and even then it probably wouldnt be too massive,given their immense upkeep costs.As i wrote in the email,4xstealth invader 16xstealth dna(as cargo has to be stealth too or they get spotted in space) cost some 13300 firebirds a turn in upkeep,and the resources cost is also immense - some 1200 electronics,1080 ceramsteel,120 wetware,120 monopols,960 metal,32 singularities..

Overall i counted it at roughly price of 9 Cadiz dreadnoughts,and even higher upkeep..
Add that 16 DNA's probably wouldnt be enough to take the capital planet,and maybe even not double that,and you'll see that its just impossible.The game will probably end before you get to a stage where you could put up such maintainance..

So stealth in subversion imo servers for
1) dropping spies on enemy planets (good idea,info gathering is too difficult in nova)
2)suprise strikes with small numbers against undefended targets(if someone leaves his advisors undefended,he deserves it)
3)possible ship/relics raiding :)

Id much more expect the combat ship to receive the stealth upgrades,too..if you can slip just few stealth destroyers in enemy's rear,they could make incredible mess on transport paths.Again,you probably wouldnt get resources to build full strong stealth fleet until very very late in game.

So imo,the stealth here helps to reduce the massive scale the nova starts to have late in game and introduces at those stages exciting tactics like the mentioned raiding and reconnaisance,and perhaps some guerrila tactics with ground stealth units.I dont however see them as direct combat tools,because at the stages stealth is introduced anyone can afford to keep sizeable garrisons on their worlds,big enough to wipe floor with most of stealth units that would dare attack.Even so,the stealth units can make some nice mess,disrupt the building processes,destroy unwary units,and maybe most importantly,force other player to send troops to hunt them down.Id say that dropping some stealth RPD marauders on rear planets can be huge distraction.

(some facts people often miss - stealth ships require 3 more singularities,much more electronics,more ceramsteel,wetware,monopols.the pre-requisite for stealth tech is cyberpilot,deeply in proscribed techs.
ground stealth units also require wetware and singularity..
and the overall upkeep cost is about 3 times higher

Other facts - stealth units get 20 camo,+1 agility,+1 to accuracy on all weapons

rapid deployment units get +4-6 movement,+1 agility,+2 accuracy on all weapons

marauder's are now hover units

There are transport planes and ground transports around.Already used in hyperion,but quite major change for nova-style games.

Cool new church and league units with own graphic :) and better build handling

What iam saying is that this patch is very easy to learn for people that know nova,but is also much more rich in content.Unlike hyperion where things just get weird sometimes,You can find most nova units here,working like normal,but you add to it exciting new units that just feel missing in the original nova..id hate to think EFS ends with marauder/dna/hover and archangel/cadiz/invader in terms of technology :)
If the original units get more balanced so theres no ultimate units like dna assault anymore,the subversion might make EFS how it should have looked like :)

(iam not sure about the advisors,but i realize there's no other way around this,you cant modify the economy much)

kirov
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Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: Mastiff question..

Postby kirov » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:16 pm

Sorry that I posted before considering these Subversion aspects too carefully.

Now you wrote that, I see another issue - Stealth are so late and exclusive they can be irrelevant. :)

Kargard
Assault Legionnaire
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:01 am

Re: Mastiff question..

Postby Kargard » Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:56 pm

Well,we really have the
http://www.fadingsun.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
for the subversion chat..
but,well,since this place is really dying out,might as well post little part of tiberius reply about the dna's and other units balance.

"I don't mind altering the DNA, Ranger, Psi or most other ground units if we can find the proper tweaks for them. I gave some thought to the suggestion about lowering DNA legion's air fighting power but I don't like the idea of them being susceptible to a non tech related unit such as strategic bombers or fighters. I'd prefer to find a way to have another high tech unit be a good counter to them. Morph fighters do a pretty good job against them but I don't think their the answer. I've been thinking about the Ranger legion and it's occured to me that perhaps raising it's movement rate significantly and increasing their firepower might be a good move. Really I think Psi Masters should become the premier ground unit considering the efforts required to produce them and considering the expense to maintain them.

Getting back to the DNA legion I think that it can be brought into a reasonable power level with other units but it's a question of how much of a tweak do we want. Generally my opinion is that the most costly ground unit should be the premier unit. So I think that maybe the DNA legion should be reduced a bit and the Psi Master and Rangers should be slightly increased in their abilities. When I've finished with the it's war gal file I'll take a look at these three units and see if I can find a way to shift the power levels in reasonable ways. If you want to look at them and make a suggestion I'll definitely take it under advisement."

Well you can find that all in subversion forum,but iam sure tiberius would welcome any suggestions regarding the units balance in subversion,even from people that play nova or hyperion..
(especially if backed by little live tests using mapeditor :)

But anyway,thrice hooray for the idea of nerfing the DNA's a bit..and ranger's improvement cant hurt either :)

Sukayo
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Re: Mastiff question..

Postby Sukayo » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:27 pm

One comment only: The NOVA patch is final. At least no1 from us will touch it again, so if anybody (or better more ppl) will create another version - your are invited to do so.

Klaus Borek ala Sukayo


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