new patch ideas..

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Kargard
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new patch ideas..

Postby Kargard » Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:13 pm

Iam still at drawing board,but i was thinking about strong modification of current EFS(probably using elements of nova/subversion),more focused on planetary combat..i've got some ideas,and would like to ask if anyone see's any problems with them?Id especially like Tiberius's opinion,since this was partially inspired by his new its war map..

Practically what iam thinking is making starting units more like WW2 era units(biggest source of military info you can find around,and the state of galaxy in EFS isnt all that far from WW2 technology).Id keep the more advanced units in,but make reaching them in technologies -very- difficult - perhaps in thousands of research points,to the point that certain technologies just wont be "here take this" like in current games.
On the other hands,id keep starting unit's as certain average "base",and give cheaper techs to upgrade them.
Lets say you research Navy division technology,one of earliest cheapest techs.Now the navy division is bit better then the starting infantry division - just a bit,2 agility more,better accuracy,better camo,little more health.All in all about 20 percent better unit.
But,one of the possible starting upgrades for Navy division would be "Navy landing boats" or something like that - which would be 6 movement hover unit,can be cargo,almost no fighting ability,dirty cheap(10 metal or something).So this unit could either skimm the ocean 6(less?) movement per turn,or be loaded in naval transports,then unload and land with its own movement - then you could disband it,and voila,you got navy division with full movement some 12 hexes away from starting point.

Same would go for air division,air movement,fast,disband and you got the airborne division ready..

To keep the building's from being overloaded with all the upgrades,id keep most of them tied to techs,and you could always strike the tech when you felt the unit's being obsolete.

Another system id like to put in is actually higher agilities then the accuracies - for example,stats i tested for naval division would be 1/5 air,2/6 direct,5/10 close,which is to emphasize that the soldier's really shoot in general enemy direction,and only when it gets to close fighting the hits start to rack up.armor would be like 15,agility like 9 - so navy against navy will miss plenty of shots.Thats to emphasize that these are usually troops trained to move in difficult terrain and can often avoid fire from others.standard infantry would have about 7 agility.
There's just load of units you can stack up in the unit's list - lets say basic infantry,anti-tank infantry(i plan to make tanks much less agile then infantry,so the anti-tankers will have big punch but poor accuracy and wont really threaten the other infantry much,while the tanks will have too tough armor to penetrate from standard firearms shoots),mortar company,entrenched infantry(entrench would be possible only in some buildings,perhaps factory/fort/palace,would increase both armor and agility,but 0 movement and no cargo too)

Small tests i ran worked fine.4 navy divisions taking on 4 infantry and 2 mortar managed after 3 turns attacks(with 1 casualty) to break the defenders,taking good damage.thats about what i had in mind - longer,stronger fights without obviously giving advantage to any side,and enough time to bring in some reinforcements.I will have to work on the officer corps though - sometimes the units give too soon,sometimes too late.

Well,add more fighters,more naval units,perhaps stuff like radar/mines/naval mines/missiles and other things id like to add and you get the idea.I still havent figured out on what to do with the space units - i will keep most of them in i guess,but i dont want them to be as massive thing as now.More like 1-2 cruisers with carrying capacity and contingent of fighters/bombers,very expensive late technology.On the other hand,small things like fighters and space transports id like to have around,only in small numbers.

Why am i modding this for EFS and not some WW2?Well,EFS is just too charming sides not so much reality to count with :) no one will smirk if i put in knight legion or something.

I will start beginning of june - shouldnt take too long to make first version,but might take time to actually test and fix up.

Anyway,any comments would be appriciated,especially if you think iam making some error in calculations somewhere.

Alan

kirov
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby kirov » Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:29 pm

Be sure to prepare not only new units or a tech tree, but also a new scenario, with new maps and stuff. I guess it should be similar to its war, but with more planets inhabited by quarelling houses, and with various combinations. Otherwise, in standard maps (even including it's war) ground forces will be still of secondary importance and good only for several turns.

Kargard
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Kargard » Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:04 pm

Of course,i have a idea that the war will be forced to start turn 1,so ill try to make a maps to reflect that.I probably wont fit all 5 houses on maps,they are pretty small as it is - more like 1v1 or 1v1v1 maps.Also id probably put houses on more maps then just a homeworlds,to make up in variety(idea influenced by hyperion corinthian's galaxy too)
Also dont forget that i plan to make space ships really hard to reach..Like seriously goddamn hard.20 turns at minimal,perhaps with some non-combat transports coming in first.That should pretty much force people to wage the ground combats..
(also i was thinking i could actually kick out all rebel maps and keep most of maps as "conflict" maps,including huge fight of all 5 houses against symbiots on stigmata.After all,the rebels suck ass and you get the buildings almost free.This is meant to be totally multiplayer mod)

So far i've been thinking about it like that - starting tech - roughly WW2 era,so no electronics targeting resulting in low accuracies(i've decided that accuracy will mean either the precision of shots OR their splash damage - so big high explosive shells can be quite accurate even when fired blind.They wont be too effective against tanks because of damage:armor ratio etc.the "entrenchment's" i plan to add to unit's as upgrades will be mix of armor and agility.its hard to hit them,and when you do the entrenchment can absorb the shots.
Another "era"(need to research some high cost pre-requisites to get there) would be something around 60s earth era - helicopters,infantry carrying sub-machine guns,first guided missiles(increasing accuracy substantionally),and generally upgrades for most units(i plan to keep the starting unit's around for longer time using upgrade system).This is where naval and air unit's start to get serious..
first space transports too,but nothing revolutionary,probably just in-system.

Well and third step is probably standard EFS,ceramsteel,powered armors,energy weapons,most of which would be brand new units..
more serious space transports and first combat ships.

finally space era - iam not sure about this,but iam thinking something like light bomber/medium bomber/heavy bomber,same with fighters,cruiser's(might call them destroyer's out of pure respect to freespace franchise :) ) which carry the fighters/bombers around,some basic frigate and destroyer-like ships,and perhaps some "supership" in place of dreadnought..
Just to illustrate,iam thinking one cruiser should cost around 2000 in metal,800 in ceramsteel and stuff..You'll need several turns of planet production to even start it.Not to mention longer build times..
space is still on drawing board and it might be different,i'll see...

By the way,any people willing to beta-test with me when i have first versions? :)

Alan

Kargard
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Kargard » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:46 pm

I got this idea too - how about putting the nobles in current scepter slot,making them the actual votes and making them killable(to represent that the scepters are distributed among the high house members and they usually destroy the scepter rather then have it captured).Iam not sure but id probably make them 0 movement but can be cargo,with the seer spy planes and other things they cant be that hard to find.They'd be quite tough kill,but not impossible either.

And in original noble slot id put "house member" which would be something like house generals,with some fighting abilities and able to vote on B2.

The purpose sort of escapes me myself,but it sounds to me much better then the current scepters,and could make nice new unit,with the house leader portrait and house banner next to it and all also it makes more sense that the actual house leader's wouldnt engage directly in the fighting..and the house members would be actually buildable.

And it would allow me to use the current officer slot for more mischief..like making it space officer ship

What'd ya all think?

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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Maur13 » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:41 pm

Hmm, but wouldn't be all houses immediately eliminated due to not having nobles? Got to check that, but its interesting idea.

Kargard
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Kargard » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:36 pm

Why would they get eliminated?If i put the "house member" unit in nobles slot,it will get all the traits the nobles have,including keeping the house bloodline ..

kirov
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby kirov » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:22 pm

Yet another option with this space problem is to allow transport ships very early, almost in the first few turns, so that an early invasion with powerful army of 3 wolfen tanks and 2 militia could be conducted... :) Such an option would surely add to mayhem, if war ships would still be forbidden for a long time.

As to that testing, I resolved not to play any SPs (no time for this and besides EFS is boring as hell on SP), but I'm up to some fast one-on-one games.

Kargard
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Kargard » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:32 pm

Well..i guess if i made them quite expensive..so that using naval transports would be still much less resource draining..and make them system only without jump capability..i guess its possible,yeah..
Hrm not sure if it wouldnt allow everyone to build buildings everywhere,where id like them to use naval transports to build bases on island's in sort of move-on wave..
Maybe early tech but not starting would do it.Thanks for suggestion.

(By the way,will even anyone around here play it?Iam probably doing it for fun mainly,but its little depressing that there might be some 5 people who'll even look at it :)

Alan

kirov
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby kirov » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:18 pm

(By the way,will even anyone around here play it?Iam probably doing it for fun mainly,but its little depressing that there might be some 5 people who'll even look at it
it wouldn't be a problem if new players were coming up... Well, another idea after that unfortunate democracy game that is to write some sort of manual. Most popular games have such a thing and it greatly helps newbies, so that they don't have to spend years before the computer to discover they should build plenty of engineers...

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Macroz
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Macroz » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:07 pm

By the way,will even anyone around here play it?Iam probably doing it for fun mainly,but its little depressing that there might be some 5 people who'll even look at it
I can't really play. Too often I think what could be improved. I've recently finished my Master's thesis and that has left me some time to think about the future. I think I'll post some ideas I'd like to get feedback on to the clone forum next weekend.

Kargard
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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Kargard » Mon May 03, 2004 4:58 am

No offense Macroz,but personally i dont belive clone will get ever finished.It lost the focus and drive and you always need that for larger project's.
Of course,i wouldnt know,but it sure feels like that.

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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Macroz » Mon May 03, 2004 9:17 pm

Yeah that's what often happens, trust me I know from MUD development. However, I'm not talking about anybody else's projects but my own. The reason it's taking so long for me is because I have to change the way software is written while making it. Have to be drastic because otherwise I can't do it. I need to do a lot of groundwork before I can get to the game.

What is the likelihood of a commercial EFS 2 or a satisfying commercial space strategy game? Almost zero too. And EFS just does not do it to me anymore.

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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Kargard » Tue May 04, 2004 1:40 am

Yeah space strategies just suck now.I tried MOO 3 and boy long time since i played so unbaked game.
EFS just have something unique..the planet's somehow feel real,breathing.You can scout them out and say "aha here are some food marker's and over there are some energy,ill need naval transport to get there,should build road here,is it defendable enough.."
something like civilization only much faster.
Now game's like MOO3 just have it all statistical.You got this much troops he got this much set the approach and click to check out results.Almost same with space combat,most people just auto play it,because the direct control is incredibly bothersome part.All building's get autobuild..can we have some content here please?

EFS just..makes it very personal..micromanagement which doesnt get old too fast!woo :) everytime i build 50 metal mine or something my heart jumps in joy.

If you consider how buggy it is,it was still quite an achievement..think it got good score in press too,but never got really famous around..

edit:space empires are pretty good too.Very detail also and in space only,rare combination.Too bad the AI sucks and after some time you just feel alone among all the stars :)

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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Maur13 » Wed May 05, 2004 4:10 pm

I actually got the same idea few days ago as Kirov mentioned. Well, i saw "Dune" on TV, and though, maybe you could 'borrow' space transport from someone (well, League) from the very beginning?

So, they would cost nothing to produce, had really high maintenance cost, and even maybe could be indestructible (ie, too high agility to be hit by anything)

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Re: new patch ideas..

Postby Bromley » Wed May 05, 2004 6:14 pm

Reality did something similar (I've not played it, just read the following here):

I have added the Charioteer transport and bulk hauler, which may be leased for 200 and 500 fb's, respectively. I also increased the cost of some of the other units which are paid for, like muster, and brother battle.
I'd guess that the way that he does it is to have, as you suggest, zero build cost and a high maintenance.

So, in a Dune universe, you'd have free build fast build, high capacity + high maintenance (to encourage a load, move, disband type of action) and no weapons. There would be no jump-capable armed ships.

The question is what to do with the Symbiots, Church, Merchants and Vau. I suspect that any effort directed towards a Dune version would be better aimed at a streamlined game for multiplay.


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