DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

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Russell
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DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Russell » Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:16 am

This is true. I knew they were the best unit before, but I never knew how ridiculously powerful they are. The Nova patch had many updates and balance changes in the past, and has not had one for years. I think it is time. The DNA Assault legions are so unbalanced, it is almost foolish to build anything else!

With the help of the map editor, I had some 20 vs 20 stack battles against DNA Assault Legions, all units elite, all units spotted. Here are my results:

DNA vs Ranger (amount of dead is under name)
1 - 15
1 - 20
1 - 17
0 - 20
2 - 17
1 - 15
0 - 17
2 - 16
2 - 14
2 - 17
Average
1.2 - 16.8 (That's ridiculous.)

DNA vs Mega Tank
1 - 8
1 - 8
0 - 7
2 - 2
3 - 6
4 - 9
1 - 5
6 - 6
5 - 4
2 - 10
Average
2.5 - 6.5 (Mega Tanks can be bombarded, and can't even come close to matching up against DNA Assault Legions? What's the point?)

DNA vs Pestulator Artillery
4 - 16
2 - 14
2 - 13
3 - 18
2 - 15
3 - 14
2 - 14
2 - 18
1 - 15
0 - 16
Average
2.1 - 15.3 (You'd think something with 200 indirect attack could kill some more of those...)

Of course, I figure (They must have a weakness...air!) Well, it was a bit more fair, but keep in mind Morph Bombers cost a lot more and have more disadvantages, and get torn apart by actual anti-air units.

DNA vs Morph Divebombers
3 - 5
2 - 6
4 - 1
5 - 1
2 - 4
5 - 3
5 - 1
2 - 4
0 - 5
2.8 - 3.0 (Morph Divebombers cost much more, have disadvantages when it comes to having to refuel, and still lose out against units that shouldn't even be considered anti-air. Why use anti-air if DNA assault legions can hold their own?)

Then I started strategic bombers, but that was even more absurd. 1 accuracy? With DNA Assault Legion's 7 agility, I only had to test this a few times to notice a trend (this last test was fought in cities though...that may have had an effect)
DNA vs Strategic Bombers
0 - 1
0 - 3
0 - 0
0 - 0
Average
0.0 - 2.0

Basically what I'm saying is DNA assault legions are far, far, FAR too powerful. I propose we make a balance change in Nova. Nova was created to make the game more playable, but now that I know of their near invinsibility, I don't really need to build anything else. They can't be bombarded, they are relatively cheap (take a while to build, but that doesn't matter in large scale wars), and are simply overpowering.

Does anyone agree with me? Does anyone else find this extremely out of balance?

Shocker
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Shocker » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:49 pm

To me, one of the interesting things about EFS is that nothing is invulnerable becuase you are always able to capture it.

On the otherhand, you would expect a big, heavily armored vehicle to beat infantry, but DNA Assault Legions are future, high tech, powerarmored forces. Their agility should be warranted. Perhaps the costs are what is out of line.

Hyperion tries to address the resource costs where Nova is not well balanced.

Also way Nova changed the attack modes is a culprit. 4 chances to attack with Close against a Tank vs 2 with Direct is a big deal.

So adjusting the cost break down and balancing the attack factors against the attack modes may make sense.

Adding some ground transportation would make sense too.

- Shocker.
Long Live EFS!

Russell
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Russell » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:12 pm

"To me, one of the interesting things about EFS is that nothing is invulnerable becuase you are always able to capture it."

Yes but with a noble or officer, they are nearly unbeatable with anything besides other DNA Assault Legions.

"On the otherhand, you would expect a big, heavily armored vehicle to beat infantry, but DNA Assault Legions are future, high tech, powerarmored forces. Their agility should be warranted. Perhaps the costs are what is out of line."

They're way out of line with the EFS universe, though. It says in the Fading Suns rulebook that in the 4970's armored vehicles were popular and heavily used in the war, but their cost was too great, so they were then used to support infantry. I think it'd be much cooler to have 7-8 shock legions with 1-2 mega tanks to support them, rather than DNA assault legions killing everything in site, and they are designed to be "shock" units, so I don't think they should have high agility.

"Also way Nova changed the attack modes is a culprit. 4 chances to attack with Close against a Tank vs 2 with Direct is a big deal."

I was actually a fan of direct hitting tread and close hitting foot. It was poorly implemented in the original EFS, however, and I'm trying to make my own version of it that works (so Mega Tanks are the most powerful unit, but a heavy tank killer makes quick work of them, but then infantry makes quick work of a heavy tank killer...so to have a stack of just armored or infantry units is foolish as it would be too easy to counter)

PDF
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby PDF » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:47 pm

Russel,
I agree that Tanks/Infantry relationship aren't good in original EFS, and Nova changes (Direct and Close hit Foot and Tread) are not that good either because they make Foot TOO powerful vs Tread...
My idea is to have Direct hit Foot AND Tread, but Close hit Foot only - think of direct being a long range rank gun or infantry AT weapons, and Close some shorter-ranged machineguns and grenades. So Foot units won't be powerful vs Tread unless they have a good Direct rating.
Tanks will also have to be "specialized" in Close to be really effective vs Foot. And that will still requires make mixed stacks useful...
Behold, real-time !
PDF

Xarius
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Xarius » Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:44 am

Perhaps try a mix of close assault/mega tanks see how that pans out. It's been said over and over that mixed stacks are the key to victory.

plus Viral DNA takes approx an extra 600 research points extra to be able to build above the tank.

As well 3 turns for a tank, 5 turns for the DNA.

SO every 15 turns you can have 5 tanks to 3 DNA legions. (with just 1 building) so In order to get an accurate assessment you should also take that into account. To have 20 tanks you would only have 12 DNA assault legions.

to break it down even further, the tank has 2 extra move points, better spot, and better armor. IF the build time is taken more into account, then that could make it more interesting. But of course the DNA legions are meant to be the ultimate weapon.

The tank however does have a low rank, but fighting straight stack vs straight stack that means nothing.

It is understandable to worry about the kind of firepower that they have. they cover nearly all apsects of combat except underwater. But truly the extra time they take to build could really be a hindrance. Especially with universal warehouse off. All these factors could be taken into account.

I'm sure they will be the main fighting force in any combat group, but whoever uses them will definately have to pay the price. Of course you could always offset thier usefulness by destroying any transport ships that drop unexpectedly into your space. If you can't do that well then your in for a hurting anyways :D

Russell
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Russell » Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:55 am

Xarius, the thing is, late in the game, time no longer matters. I have around 30 or so forts as Hawkwood, and produce many per turn, and I'm arguably the weakest house in the Devolution game. When I amass my forces, I have too many DNA Assault Legions to move in. I use a seer spy plane to spot. No stack can take out the DNA assault legions, except for other stacks of the same thing. A stack of 10 mega tanks and 10 DNA legions will lose to 20 DNA legions. Near the end of the game, every house has a ton of units and ton of resources and many cities to build in. So basically at that point, there's no reason to build anything else unless you're being invaded on that planet, and even then, it wouldn't truly be worth it. Mega Tanks cannot go toe-to-toe with DNA legions, but they can be bombarded, and have plenty of other units that fight well against them, including air and artillery. DNA Assault legions take out everything. In the game I'm in I built around 40 mega tanks and 20 pestulator artillery thinking I would be able to take out DNA assault legions, boy was I wrong. Since it's hard to transport a lot of units in an invasion, you need to send your best stuff. That's always DNA legions now. Marauders/DNA/transports/dreadnaughts/archangels are the only units you need to convincingly win in Nova. In EFS it's even more messed up because artillery can damage anything immensely.

Right now I'm working on some type of Nova variant where units like the Mega Tank and Shock Legion are the most powerful units in the game, but they have counters. Everything should have a counter. A heavy tank killer can take out a mega tank, or anti-infantry tank can take out shock legions, but both of those have their own counters. I feel Nova AND efs both discourage use of mixed stacks, because the counter system is not good (in nova, direct hitting tread and close hitting foot was taken out, so now there are no true counters), and in EFS, nearly any units could counter another. I'm testing this variant out right now, if anyone is interested in helping me test it, I'd love the help. I'm no expert on editing EFS, but I'm just trying to make a variant where weaker units are still used in the late game, and there's no one ultimate unit. By adding high costs, high maintenance, and units to counter the most powerful units, it kinda balances out. That means people would still build assault legions and power legions because shock legions are costly and should be used with other supports, never just a 20 stack of them, or someone can counter it easily. So mixed stacks would be encouraged.

Maur13
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Maur13 » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:21 pm

I personally don't think high cost/maintenance is the way to counter ultimate weapons.

Not that i can think now of anything.


Btw, i am curious. Have you tried to use Doppelgangers? Immunity to all except Close attacks, while they have indirect themselves and much better close attack than DNA... and while they have lower armour, they have higher agility. Makes them possibly even better than DNA :D

Russell
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Russell » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:50 am

Sounds good in theory doesn't it? Too bad the DNA Assault Legions win again:

Number lost under name...

DNA - Doppleganger
6 - 11
7 - 15
6 - 13
8 - 17
6 - 11


While a DNA Assault Legions can fight many other things more effectively, is 2 or 3 times cheaper (considering Dopplegangers required wetware), it's pretty unfair.

I wasn't saying maintenence and higher costs are an effective counter to powerful units. I'm saying that's how you would allow weaker units to play a part in late games. However, one could STILL muster up a stack of 20 mega tanks, and if they did that, heavy tank killers would crush them, a counter. The same would go for shock legions, anti-infantry tanks would be able to take them down. So they would have counter units.

In Nova, there is no counter to the DNA Assault Legion. And the DNA Assault Legion is a counter to everything. :(

Matt Caspermeyer
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Matt Caspermeyer » Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:11 am

The Nova changes with respect to Foot and Tread being both vulnerable to Direct and Close do make it harder to design units that are specific to attacking Foot and Tread units.

PDF and I had an interesting discussion about it in one of the recent Hyperion posts. What's interesting is that you can make a case for having Direct Weapons hit both Tread and Foot, but have Close Weapons hit only Foot units. This also sounds pretty realistic, but the thing is that if you make these types of changes, it becomes harder to design units that target specific units.

Even though the different weapon types, Indirect, Air, Direct, etc. are meant to simulate various weapon systems, they do serve as a means to make certain units immune to specific weaponry. Another problem also arises when giving a specific unit 4 attack modes including Air. Now the unit basically has no weakness and so it becomes very difficult to defeat.

In Hyperion, the only units that have Indirect, Air, Direct, and Close attack modes cannot be built by the player. I'd strongly suggest dropping one of the DNA Assault Legion attack modes. If you want them to be vulnerable to Air units, then drop the Air attack. If you want them to be more vulnerable to Tanks, I'd drop their Indirect attack.

As a general rule of thumb, I would not give any unit that can be built regularly all 4 of the attack modes mentioned above as they don't have any weaknesses, per se, and are hard to beat. That's why in Hyperion some of the Symbiot, Church, League, and Rebel units are so potent, but none of them are buildable by House players.

If you need any additional help with tweaking things, feel free to post or email me!

Matt
Matt

Maur13
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Maur13 » Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:42 pm

Damn, so no nice doppelgangers as my secret weapon? :(

Close/Direct difference in targetting is interesting, but i am not sure if the whole thing is wrong in principle-that one unit is "ultimate". On such scale, specialization doesn't really exists (except air units, and they don't really resemble airpower either). Artillery is artillery only in name, for example.

Then again, from game-balance perspective, if variety of reasonably usable units is desired thing, then there is indeed a need for change. Especially on ground-but there will still be killer stack, for example 1/3 tanks, 1/3 legions, 1/3 tank killers. Or something else.


One thing i don't understand is why foot units are invulnerable to space bombardment?

kirov
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby kirov » Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:03 pm

One thing i don't understand is why foot units are invulnerable to space bombardment?
To force you to make some sort of ground invasion, I presume.

Looking thru DNA Legion problem it seems there's no really good idea how to handle it. If so, then throwing them away from the game would be far more reasonable than leaving them unchanged. But what about changes than despite looking unrealistic could actually solve the problem? Something "gamey", if you catch my drift. For instance, one could make DNAs untransportable... Dunno, something like that, I don't know all the ropes in dat files.

Shocker
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Re: DNA Assault Legions are invinsible.

Postby Shocker » Sat Oct 04, 2003 6:30 pm

One idea may be to check out how the new Hyperion v 1.4 is using armor. If armor had more impact on how much damage could be inflicted, Tanks would have a greater advantage since they have better armor.

- Shocker
Long Live EFS!


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