Hyperion Gamma - Trace Harvesting

[Matt Caspermeyer]

Okay, I am getting more into playing my Corinthian game and it seems like Trace is always going to be a problem so I think I'm going to need to increase the amount of Trace harvested.

Before I can do that, though, I need to know if there are any planet types that seem to provide enough Trace.

For example, Jungle planets with a lot of land seem to be capable of providing enough Trace to support that planet's production capabilities from what I can see.

Normal planets seem to be quite lacking, and in the Corinthian galaxy, Quentrand is a mostly water planet and so Trace is very hard to come by there (although I am actually managing okay).

I don't have any Ice or Barren planets and Earth (MegaCity) seems to be okay with Trace production from what I can see.

So, currently, the only planet type that I can see that needs Trace harvesting tweaking is Normal.

I need information on Ice and Barren planets as there is not one near al-Malik in the Corinthian galaxy and so I don't anticipate (unless I want to go hangout with the Symbiots on the other side of Stigmata ) being able to determine the harvesting capabilities of those planet types for a long time.

Also, let me know if there are any Normal planet types where you seem to be collecting enough Trace (Schemadin seems like it should be able to provide enough Trace) as well as any MegaCity or Jungle planets that you can provide me with information about.

Thanks!

Matt

P.S. By the way, I seem to be able to collect plenty of Energy no matter what the planet type!

[Gotthard]

Well I've not been playing all that long... House Hawkwood on Horiginal galaxy... The aliens are no where to be seen on Stigmata, I think they captured a couple cities somewhere else but that is it... The houses themselves seem to be doing better though.

My main concern is resource collection. It is insanely high! I had 30,000 trace without even trying! Metal was about right... Food seemed a little high but not insanely so... Energy seems high, but will seem like less when I have more advanced factories I think. But trace is super super high. I notice that it the same as metal mostly... is that intentional at mines? Gems *might* be high too, as well as exotica. I guess... I liked the more scarce resources in the previous beta.... but I think we can all agree 30k trace is too high. I think I'm in like... 1480 or something... maybe 50 turns in at the max. I have delphi, and the planets surrounding it... delphi Has 2 mines I built, the rest have more, but I've not even close to exploited all the planets I have, and I have few planets as it is.

Just my 2 cents ;p

[Matt Caspermeyer]

Gotthard:

Are you maxing out your Singularity production at each planet and still generating a surplus of Trace?

I know in the Corinthian Galaxy, if you attempt to max out your Singularity production all the other resources seem to be in shorter supply.

I do seem to have an excess of Metal, though, and I know that it is easy to have an excess of Trace if you are not maxing out Chemicals, Electronics, etc. so that you have a surplus with 3 or 4 Cyclotrons on a planet.

As far as Exotica, since it takes a while to get Wetware, it is easy to generate a lot of that, too.

Nonetheless, let me know if you get further into your game or build more production facilities if your harvesting still seems high.

I have an unreleased update where I've increased the usage of Metal for Engineers (and lowered their Food usage a bit to compensate), Nobles, Sceptres, and a few other units like that so that there is not as high a surplus of Metal, but I need to look into it some more as it may make better sense to reduce the collection of resources slightly in the harvesting DAT files instead.

Well, thanks for the comments and let me know if you find out anything different!

Matt

[Sukayo]

I am trying to max out chemicals, and singularities later. The limiting factor at all my planets for chemicals is now energy, and i was reorganizing the cities to harvest more of it, after having a surplus of food. Only one planet is missing trace
Also to get gems is critical, so i disbanded later a lot of farms to get the 3-5 gems form the place if there were gem fields close by.
Food and metal is enough, often i can build 10+ engineers per turn/planet, and is a hazzle to handle them all afterwards .

[Gotthard]

Alright, I've been modifying the income rates... and I've found your trace is about right overall, I only slightly lowered it in some cases.

I noticed that energy=chemicals basically... why even have energy if it is only needed for chemicals? The moderate trace is the only thing that doens't make it equal... I'd have most factories comsume energy, especially singularities and fusoriums. I've been in the game 150 turns... And I have surplus 8k energy a turn, 4k food, and only 500 trace I think. 40 chem factories, 5 singularity... not sur eon electronic, not at home right now, but net is 500 a turn... after those spent on monopols which are 300 total...

It's not that my unit count is low, I'm about in the middle or so... costs are 70k a turn at 50% loyalty I think.

I"d hope maybe to make energy more useful, thinking of experimenting with it. As it stands basically, all products are made from energy and trace. Wish I had the xcel sheet I made... will get it later. Wondeirng if food or metal could be used as inputs... or lower food income at least, and raise metal costs or use them as inputs.

[Matt Caspermeyer]

I am trying to max out chemicals, and singularities later. The limiting factor at all my planets for chemicals is now energy, and i was reorganizing the cities to harvest more of it, after having a surplus of food. Only one planet is missing trace
Also to get gems is critical, so i disbanded later a lot of farms to get the 3-5 gems form the place if there were gem fields close by.
Food and metal is enough, often i can build 10+ engineers per turn/planet, and is a hazzle to handle them all afterwards

I'm going to look into the Metal surplus some more and see what I can do about that. I think I've resolved the Food surplus.

Alright, I've been modifying the income rates... and I've found your trace is about right overall, I only slightly lowered it in some cases.

Yes, ironically, Trace seems to be one of the few things I have correct!

I noticed that energy=chemicals basically... why even have energy if it is only needed for chemicals? The moderate trace is the only thing that doens't make it equal... I'd have most factories comsume energy, especially singularities and fusoriums. I've been in the game 150 turns... And I have surplus 8k energy a turn, 4k food, and only 500 trace I think. 40 chem factories, 5 singularity... not sur eon electronic, not at home right now, but net is 500 a turn... after those spent on monopols which are 300 total...

It's not that my unit count is low, I'm about in the middle or so... costs are 70k a turn at 50% loyalty I think.

I"d hope maybe to make energy more useful, thinking of experimenting with it. As it stands basically, all products are made from energy and trace. Wish I had the xcel sheet I made... will get it later. Wondeirng if food or metal could be used as inputs... or lower food income at least, and raise metal costs or use them as inputs.

I tend to agree - I'm probably going to use Energy for the earlier production facilities (Electronics, Biochems), but for Fusoriums and Cyclotrons, I think I'm going to require a more refined fuel source (i.e. Chemicals) for those facilities.

I'll look at it some more, but you make excellent points. By the way, if you have some information regarding specific changes, let me know and I'll see about implementing them if they make sense to me.

Thanks for the comments!

Matt

[Tainted Pikachu]

my observation: way too much trace. i am sure that a fully developed kish can produce several thousand units of excess trace each turn, same goes for energy. basically, my economy early in the game focuses on exporting gems and trace in massive quantities. four mines are enough to fund the starting army and run 8 labs.

also, there is always way too much metal late in the game. how bout adding metal as raw material for ceramsteel?

other than exotica, it seems to me that resource tiles had lost all strategic value, too much income from terrain

ie. gobi is a desert, how much oil do the chinese produce there?

[Matt Caspermeyer]

my observation: way too much trace. i am sure that a fully developed kish can produce several thousand units of excess trace each turn, same goes for energy. basically, my economy early in the game focuses on exporting gems and trace in massive quantities. four mines are enough to fund the starting army and run 8 labs.

Do you play with Universal Warehouse ON or OFF? It makes a big difference.

Also, are you playing with the latest Gamma release (released 15AUG04) or an older one. Harvesting has changed slightly, but production has been completely revamped.

also, there is always way too much metal late in the game. how bout adding metal as raw material for ceramsteel?

I think I've tried this before but there was an issue with respect to using Metal as the requirement for a produced resource. If I could do it, I would, though.

Metal is one thing I'm going to look into with the latest version of Hyperion to determine with the increased number of cities needed that Metal is now scarcer.

other than exotica, it seems to me that resource tiles had lost all strategic value, too much income from terrain

Since resource tiles only add 10 to the collection of a city and it is often that you'll find certain planets completely devoid of a resource in a random game with Universal Warehouse OFF, I needed to allow harvesting structures the ability to collect resources from terrain alone.

I think this was a good change.

ie. gobi is a desert, how much oil do the chinese produce there?

On most planets, resource tiles are rare and so it is hard to collect enough resources to support production.

If you take a Cyclotron and you look at all the buildings required to support just 1 Singularity production, you'll see that there are a lot of cities required to support such a structure.

Without going in and tweaking every map without a resource potential calculator this is very difficult to do. I could maybe play around with random maps and their generation to help balance this aspect some more, but I tend to think harvesting from terrain tiles is a good way to go when you do not have the capability.

It would probably be more beneficial to provide me with a galaxy and a planet where you have found over-abundance (or shortage) of a specific resource rather than mentioning that Trace harvesting is too plentiful.

Also, make sure you are now playing the latest Gamma to provide me the most up-to-date information regarding resource collection as now I'm hoping that things will start to get a bit better with respect to balance in the different planet types.

Matt

[Tainted Pikachu]

horiginal14.gal, universal warehouse off

using your latest patch

kish, homeworld of li halan. an average mine produces cca. 150 metal, 200 trace, 20 gems

average well produces 150 energy

farmland in not good on kish, but with underwater arboriums, food is not an issue in the later stages

estimate:

a fully developed kish has like 64 resource gathering cities, 20 farms/arboriums producing an average of 80-100 food, maybe more, even 120 with arboriums -> at least 1600 food, maybe 2400

22 mines -> 3000 metal, 4000 trace, 400 gems

22 wells -> 3000 energy

so, let's say 100 chemicals plants use up 2000 energy and 500 trace, 50 electronics plants use up 500 energy and 250 trace, 50 ceramsteel plants use up 250 energy, 250 trace and 250 chemicals

so, this basic industry would consume 2000 food, 2750 energy, 1000 trace, and produce 1750 chemicals, 500 electronics and 750 ceramsteel units

so, food limit has been reached, energy too, only a third of trace production is used up. perhaps this is a desert world specific situation, i guess the same would go for nowhere, cadavus, pyre...

with exotica production minimal, you could only run a few bioplants, three or four, depending on wetware plants later, and how much farms were upgraded to arboriums.

[Matt Caspermeyer]

This is great analysis - exactly what is needed!

I think this is specific to desert worlds, so it looks like on desert worlds, there will be plenty of Metal, Trace, and possibly Gems.

I could potentially halve the "desert" Metal and Trace harvesting on normal planets from 4 / hex to 2 leaving all other areas alone for now.

By the way, I've never counted - with the limitations of harvesting cities can you squeeze 64 on a planet like Kish? Seems like it would be tight, but I've never counted to see.

Also, don't forget the Engineering costs of producing 64 Harvesting cities + 100 Chemicals plants + 50 Electronics plants + 50 Ceramsteel plants = 264 cities = 264 Engineers.

Engineer requirements:
238 Food * 264 = 62832
302 Metal * 264 = 79728
1 Trace * 264 = 264
7 Chemicals * 264 = 1848

This also doesn't include Biochems, Fusoriums, Cyclotrons, and Wetware plants and also I'm not sure if you are accounting for Loyalty or not.

Here is a simple assessment that I use from my design spreadsheet:

Code: Select all

# of   Structure   # Cap   Loy   # Prod   Fo   En   Me   Tr   Ex   Ch   Bi   El   Ce   We   Mo   Ge   Si   Surplus
 1   Cyclotron   1   0.7   1                  25               10   20      1
 3   Fusorium   5   0.7   4                  15      8                  0.5
 1   Wetware    2   0.7   1               5      5      5               1
 1   Ceramsteel   15   0.7   11      5      5      5                        5.5
 1   Bioplant   10   0.7   7      10         5                           2
 4   Electronics   10   0.7   7      10      5                              4
 6   Chemicals   20   0.7   14      20      5                              9
 17   Total Resources Required:      170   175   0   55   10   75   5   24   5   0   10   20   0   

Code: Select all

# of   Structure   # Cap   Loy   # Prod   Fo   En   Me   Tr   Ex   Ch   Bi   El   Ce   We   Mo   Ge   Si   Surplus
 1   Cyclotron   1   1.0   1   0   0   0   0   0   25   0   0   0   0   10   20   0   1
 2   Fusorium   5   1.0   5   0   0   0   0   0   15   0   8   0   0   0   0   0   0
 1   Wetware    2   1.0   2   0   0   0   0   5   0   5   0   5   0   0   0   0   2
 1   Ceramsteel   15   1.0   15   0   5   0   5   0   5   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   10
 1   Bioplant   10   1.0   10   0   10   0   0   5   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   5
 2   Electronics   10   1.0   10   0   10   0   5   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   4
 3   Chemicals   20   1.0   20   0   20   0   5   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0
 11   Total Resources Required:      110   95   0   30   10   60   5   16   5   0   10   20   0   

So if you look at minimum number of facilities for 1 Cycltron and 1 Wetware Plant you need a minimum of those facilities specified above and the amount of resources required on the bottom row to have the most modest of resource surpluses at the specified loyalties. However, to provide a surplus to build units, you need more facilities.

I'm not sure how much City Loyalty players will be able to maintain, but I'm assuming it'll be somewhere between 70-100%. If we simply specify production rates of facilities, it can help narrow down what capabilities are needed:

For example, let's target the following resource surplusses per turn at 70% Loyalty:
Singularites: 4
Monopols: 30
Wetware: 20
Ceramsteel: 50
Biochems: 30
Electronics: 30
Chemicals: 100

Here is what my spreadsheet spits out for requirements:

Code: Select all

# of   Structure   # Cap   Loy   # Prod   Fo   En   Me   Tr   Ex   Ch   Bi   El   Ce   We   Mo   Ge   Si   Surplus
 5   Cyclotron   1   0.7   1                  25               10   20      4
 23   Fusorium   5   0.7   4                  15      8                  30.5
 14   Wetware    2   0.7   1               5      5      5               20
 12   Ceramsteel   15   0.7   11      5      5      5                        56
 15   Bioplant   10   0.7   7      10         5                           35
 31   Electronics   10   0.7   7      10      5                              33
 45   Chemicals   20   0.7   14      20      5                              100
 145   Total Resources Required:      1450   1420   0   440   145   530   70   184   70   0   50   100   0   

Note that partial facilities cannot be built, but the production quotas specified are met or exceeded.

Having the ability to harvest certain resources at specific loyalties will determine whether the above quotas can be met for each specific planet.

I actually want to devise a rating system for each planet that specifies the maximum number of Cyclotrons / Wetware facilities that a planet can support since those 2 production facilities dictate the resource requirements needed for each planet. So it is really irrelevant whether you can harvest a massive surplus of certain resources, but rather if you can only support 2 Cyclotrons and 4 Wetware plants (for a rating of 2.4) then that planet is not very capable. If, on the other hand, if you have a planet that is a 10.20, then that planet has a lot of capability.

From these planetary ratings, I can then reduce harvested surplus resources without affecting the planet's rating (or I can change it by lowering harvesting abilities to affect the planet's rating).

So if you could provide a rating of Kish (not theoretical, but actual), then I could use this information to determine what its resource requirements need to be.

I could then, ideally, classify all planet types / variants in the 6 Hyperion galaxies available, average them, and then target production quotas for each planet type and adjust harvesting resources appropriately.

I actually started creating a spreadsheet to do this on all the planets in the Corinthain Galaxy about 2 years ago, but it is vary tedious work.

If I had a tool that could extract planetary terrain data, simulate allocating harvesting cities, and then add in production facilities, I could determine the optimum planetary rating and adjust resource harvesting capabilities to accommodate.

Sorry for the detailed analysis, but this is exactly what I need to balance resource production across multiple planets, planet variants, and galaxies in Hyperion - no easy task!

Thanks for the insights and please provide any additional comments / information!

Matt

[Tainted Pikachu]

first, as for loyalty, the taxes gained never compensate the loss of production for any tax rate to be justifiable if it lowers loyalty under 100%. the effects are also cumulative with each new level of production.

so, i always set taxes to achieve loyalty of 100%

he're what i experimented with yesterday:

i've set up 61 harvesting facilities on kish in mapedit, optimizing production depending on efficiency, but with an emphasis on exotica, and slightly on food. with 100% loyalty the production was:

food: 2861
energy: 2136
metal: 2822
trace: 2668
exotica: 76
gems: 274

planet produce 2861 food, 610 units are consumed by resource gathering cities, 2251 units left, let's say 200 units are reserved for labs, 2051 units left, 150 units reserved for other civilian and military cities, 1901 units left, and let's set 101 units for supporting the army. 1800 left for industrial sector. therefore, the industrial limit is 180 cities.

first limitation is exotica, kish can only support 15 biochem/wetware plants. with 5 biochem plants and 10 wetware plants the maximum production would be 20 wetware, but no biochems. this is not acceptable. so, my balance was 8 wetware plants and 7 biochem plants. for support they need 3 ceramsteel plants and one chemical plants, 19 cities total = 190 food. 161 city left. consuming 190 food, 85 energy, 15 trace and 75 exotica

surplus production: 30 biochem and 16 wetware, 5 ceramsteel and 5 chemicals

the planet can support 13 singularity plants, so, that is 104 cities involved in the process, producing 13 singularities, 52 electronics and 65 chemicals. consuming 1040 food, 1040 energy, 325 trace. 57 cities left for other production.

so, the maximum rating is 13.10, singularity could be much bigger, maybe 16 if i emphasized gems over food.

now, my optimal rate was 65 chemical plants, 40 electro plants, 20 ceramsteel, 32 fusorium, 8 singularity, 7 biochem and 8 wetware

producing a surplus: 520 chemicals, 144 electronics, 260 ceramsteel, 80 monopols, 30 biochems, 16 wetware and 8 singularities

consuming 1800 food, 1770 energy, 600 trace and 75 exotica
consumption percentage:
food 1800/1800=100%
energy 1770/2135=82.95%
trace 600/2665=22.51%
exotica 75/75=100%

excess value: 365 energy(1095 firebirds) and 2065 trace(8260 firebirds) = 9355 firebirds
optimal raing would be 8.8

so, kish in horiginal14.gal is 8(13).8(10)

[Matt Caspermeyer]

first, as for loyalty, the taxes gained never compensate the loss of production for any tax rate to be justifiable if it lowers loyalty under 100%. the effects are also cumulative with each new level of production.

so, i always set taxes to achieve loyalty of 100%

This is a goal, but in reality, I'm not sure if you'll be able to sustain this rate throughout the entire game. Maybe you can in the HOriginal Galaxy (it's been a while since I played it), but I know in the Corinthian Galaxy that it is hard to maintain 100% city loyalty and support large space fleets needed for conquest.

he're what i experimented with yesterday:

i've set up 61 harvesting facilities on kish in mapedit, optimizing production depending on efficiency, but with an emphasis on exotica, and slightly on food. with 100% loyalty the production was:

food: 2861
energy: 2136
metal: 2822
trace: 2668
exotica: 76
gems: 274

planet produce 2861 food, 610 units are consumed by resource gathering cities, 2251 units left, let's say 200 units are reserved for labs, 2051 units left, 150 units reserved for other civilian and military cities, 1901 units left, and let's set 101 units for supporting the army. 1800 left for industrial sector. therefore, the industrial limit is 180 cities.

first limitation is exotica, kish can only support 15 biochem/wetware plants. with 5 biochem plants and 10 wetware plants the maximum production would be 20 wetware, but no biochems. this is not acceptable. so, my balance was 8 wetware plants and 7 biochem plants. for support they need 3 ceramsteel plants and one chemical plants, 19 cities total = 190 food. 161 city left. consuming 190 food, 85 energy, 15 trace and 75 exotica

surplus production: 30 biochem and 16 wetware, 5 ceramsteel and 5 chemicals

the planet can support 13 singularity plants, so, that is 104 cities involved in the process, producing 13 singularities, 52 electronics and 65 chemicals. consuming 1040 food, 1040 energy, 325 trace. 57 cities left for other production.

so, the maximum rating is 13.10, singularity could be much bigger, maybe 16 if i emphasized gems over food.

now, my optimal rate was 65 chemical plants, 40 electro plants, 20 ceramsteel, 32 fusorium, 8 singularity, 7 biochem and 8 wetware

producing a surplus: 520 chemicals, 144 electronics, 260 ceramsteel, 80 monopols, 30 biochems, 16 wetware and 8 singularities

consuming 1800 food, 1770 energy, 600 trace and 75 exotica
consumption percentage:
food 1800/1800=100%
energy 1770/2135=82.95%
trace 600/2665=22.51%
exotica 75/75=100%

excess value: 365 energy(1095 firebirds) and 2065 trace(8260 firebirds) = 9355 firebirds
optimal raing would be 8.8

so, kish in horiginal14.gal is 8(13).8(10)

This is actually very useful information, but should be considered a theoretical limit at 100% Loyalty and also it assumes that you can get there at some point in the game. There is the question of how long it should take players to get to this level of development on a planet. You mention 180 cities above, assuming you can build 2 cities / turn that is 90 years to attain this level of development. Is that too long, too short? Also, it doesn't account for getting attacked, etc. and so maybe we don't need to worry about that stuff, but it should be in the back of our minds as we're building up our planets to try to achieve some optimal production capability.

Nonetheless your data is really good - do you have time to do this for other normal planets in the HOriginal Galaxy (whether they are normal, mostly desert, or mostly water)? If you could do this for other planets, I at least will know a good sample for other planets in the HOriginal galaxy.

Just going off your example of Kish, it seems like Trace harvesting could be quartered and you'd still have enough Trace. So I'm thinking that the Trace harvesting of a normal planet's desert hex can be changed from 4 to 1, but before this change is made, more data is needed, plus a normal planet without much desert may be relying on desert hexes to have sufficient Trace harvesting - this is the balancing act.

Do you have time to do this for me, Ash Catchem?

Matt

[Tainted Pikachu]

exam season is coming soon, so...

i'm currently involved in a pbem game, so as li halan expand, i'll probably make other plans/assesments, and i'll be sure to post them then.

there aren't that many planet types really, normal has 3-4 types: desert worlds, island worlds, pangaea continent and large continents

so, after a few more planets should offer a representative profile of normal worlds

[Tainted Pikachu]

i like horiginal best, so i don't play other galaxies much, but, any planet with an agora is better off with minimal taxes than loss of production, except in situations where you have one arborium and a dozen forts, but anywhere that production makes the majority of cities less taxes make more income.