Symbiots!

A very good patch

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Quintis
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Symbiots!

Postby Quintis » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:18 pm

Few question about these nasty buggers.

-I'm playing the newest Hyperion Patch, year is probably 5005 or so. House Decados.

The Symbiots have shot past Nowhere and Stigmata, past Ishtkar and Bannonburn. They are in the process of attacking Aragon. I was also suprised when shuttling some units from B.Secundus to my House world, my Space Freigthers were attacked by Symbiot Fleets at the one of the worlds on the journey.

1.Do they usually get this far in their advance? I'm afraid they will overun the entire Galaxy if this keeps up. No seems able to stop them. (Except I was able to defeat a small fleet of theirs near my House World).

2. What are the best types of units to attack their ground forces with? I've set Shock Medium Tanks, artillery, Gunships, Tank killers, etc etc, who have been slaughtered by a group of 4 or 5 of them. But oddly enough, In desperation I sent in a noble with a few Fanatic Legions, and they destroyed the Symbiots :confused: .

3. In a previous game,I become the Commander of the Stigmata Garrison. But something odd happened, I seemed to take control of all the symbiot forces on the planet Stigmata, as well Stigmata Garrison. (I could not however, control symbiot fleets and their forces on other planets.)

tkobo
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby tkobo » Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:51 am

Thats odd Ruslan, I dont think ive ever played a game of hyp that the syms didnt come out in force and kick tail for the first 100 years/turns or so.

Best way to stop the syms ,or more correctly, slow them down early on,is to get control of stigmata and capture every one of the sym space ships on the ground that you can there.

Its not uncommon for me to capture upwards of 40 sym combat ships on stig.

Move these ships to protect your home planet and any choke points in the spaceways between the syms and you.

you wont beat them, but you will slow them down alot.
This will allow you the time to really rush thru the techs and once your in 2nd or third data set, you will be able to meet them head on.

Also , dont forget to use the Emperial Fleet against them.
This will not only slow the syms down somemore, but it will also eliminate the Emperail fleet.
So you wont have to worry about the other houses using it agaisnt you at a later date.

tkobo
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby tkobo » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:14 am

Just how do you destroy the entire sym fleet in the first ten turns ?The syms start with something like over 60 ships spread over 4 planets.

Hazat (red) only starts with like 3 war ships.
One jug,one talon and one destoyer or frigate.

tkobo
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby tkobo » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:36 pm

I dont think Ive EVER had a symbiot space ship rebel .

The captured ground forces can rebel and sometimes do,but even thats rare.
My stigmata garrison usually ends up about 1/3 sym troops.

Id still like to hear how you defeat the entire sym fleet in 10 turns ?

Have you changed something gamewise ?

Are you using the default historic map ?

What are the starting space ships for you ,how many and which ones ?

Matt Caspermeyer
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Matt Caspermeyer » Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:08 am

Quintis:

But oddly enough, In desperation I sent in a noble with a few Fanatic Legions, and they destroyed the Symbiots
What kind of Noble was it? Nobles are dramatically improved and you'll find that with sufficient buffer fodder troops, that certain stacks have to weed their way through fodder troops to get to your more powerful units. If this is the case, you'll be able to defeat small groups of superior forces with a dedicated group of powerful units with this kind of buffer force that protects your more powerful units (by occupying the enemy unit's attacks while they damage and destroy the enemy forces).

This is probably why you won. Plus, sometimes you can get lucky and not lose very many forces in one battle and then if you try that same battle again, you might lose quite a few more units.

Matt
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Matt Caspermeyer
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Matt Caspermeyer » Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:38 am

Ruslan:

Which galaxy are you referring too? HOriginal?

If it is a glaring oversight, maybe it should be fixed, plus what do you mean by destroying the Symbiots, you're not talking about all of them are you?

Matt
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Matt Caspermeyer » Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:02 pm

Ruslan:

Which House are you playing in HOriginal?

I haven't looked at the Symbiot situation in that map for a long time and so I don't remember how many units they have, etc.

I'm assuming you're Li Halan or al-Malik, as you'd spend at least a couple of those turns traveling to Stigmata and beyond.

You may want to peruse the House rules for PBEM's as there are rules as to what you are allowed and not allowed to do in PBEM games.

In single player, it is up to you which bugs or map oversights you wish to exploit, but in PBEM games the rules are different.

Please see this URL for House rules for Nova:

http://website.lineone.net/~rwein/nova/houserules.htm

I never created an update of the rules as they pertain to Hyperion, but here is a discussion on House rules for Hyperion here:

http://www.kborek.cz/forum/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000156#000000

Post your opinions about the rules there.

I'm of the mind to minimize the rules as much as possible, but certain limitations in the game have caused people to create rules for playing PBEM.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you're violating any or not in your single-player games when you destroy the Symbiots in the HOriginal map within 10 turns, but it may make sense to review them to be sure that you can even employ your technique in a PBEM game.

Matt
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tkobo
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby tkobo » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:55 pm

Ruslan, i just sent the saved game out to you zipped.
My text format could not reconize the text in your email adress,so let me know if you dont recieve the email and ill try again.

Matt Caspermeyer
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Matt Caspermeyer » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:41 am

Ruslan:

I'm not sure if you can simply click on the above link, but it works from my end. If not, just go to the post that discusses the rules (also linked above) as it has all the rules repeated there.

Provide some comments if you wish.

Matt
Matt

Kosh2
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Kosh2 » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:02 am


Quintis
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Quintis » Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:05 am

Defeating the Symbiots in ten turns, attacking the League and Church, AND destroying the Vau?????

How many turns did you do this in? I do not think these things are possible without some sort of cheating. You have also failed to explain how you can possibly maintain a Fleet of hundreds of ships.

Give us details, or no one will think you did this honestly.

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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Quintis » Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:21 am

Its a video game, not a Gladiatorial bout. ;)

The rules are designed to make a Human vs Human PBEM game fair and consistent. Its designed to keep people from gaining unfair advantages over eachother.

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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Gotthard » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:47 pm

How do you get them to do something? I've not had a game where they ever get past stigmata, ever. Least in this version of hyperion... earlier ones they were god awful. I just kinda step on them every once in a whie if they somehow get to stigmata. (never even ran the garrision, and took 6 elections for anyone to get elected on average...)

You guys do something to make them more aggressive? I'd be nice for more of a challenge.

tkobo
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Re: Symbiots!

Postby tkobo » Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:49 am

Gott, look in the dat/unit dat file and see what the sym build time is(Turns2Bld).

The lower that is, the more aggressive the syms are(or at least it always seems that way to me).
I am guessing that as the number of syms increases ,so does thier need/want to expand.

In the last Hyp download i had,the Turns2Bld was 1 turn.That means that the syms can build any unit they want in only 1 turn.

They spread like crazy with this setting eveytime i played it.When I started to raise the build time,they always seemed to get less agressive.

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Re: Symbiots!

Postby Matt Caspermeyer » Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:48 am

I have found these rules! These are absurd things! I never shall agree to observe such heresy. Yes, I always attack League and on Church, I grasp the ships and I offer them the peace for huge money.
Ah yes, well that would have been my guess that you were garnering a lot of stuff from the League and / or Church. I can't remember if they have really high Level 3 or 4 ships or just Level 1, but that makes sense.

During fights at me huge losses. But it is fair war. The maintenace of ships are great, and I cannot capture all what I want. Then I fly on Symbiots and Vau and I destroy them. On a way I destroy everything, that goes.
Right - these things are fine in single-player games, but in multi-player games it was decided to not exploit these types of things.

I'm more of the mind to fix this type of stuff in the map and if you can steal ships, more power to you. Nevertheless, the game AI is pretty broken and so the House Rules were established to not take advantage of the poor AI.

Plus, in the original EFS *.DAT files, ships were pretty inexpensive, so people could go and capture these ships and then keep them. In Hyperion, the ships are expensive, but even if you disband them, you still get a lot of resources.

NBR actually pointed out to me a while back that the Church ships were easy prey and the same with the League ships in the HOriginal galaxy. I just haven't had time to update the galaxy yet to make them harder to grab.

It is game, instead of a kindergarden. Can be to me at once surrender?! At all players identical chances - nobody should prevent to another to attack League and Church! Trophies will suffice on all. The main thing, that I do not attack the opponents - people. I repeat, that these rules nonsense, any normal person should not observe them. If will observe these rules players to run with stone axes then it is better to throw out at once game in a garbage can. We play war, instead of in dolls.
This is kind of funny to hear you say this, but basically virtually every PBEM abides by these rules. That's why I started a discussion (in the other thread posted above) about House Rules and how they would pertain to Hyperion.

The current PBEM that you're in with us in the Hyperion PBEM uses these rules - I think I neglected to point this out to you.

Excuse me! But you question is fool! Sorry, But it is a really. I can send for you my saves, I can explain it. I send my save for Tkobo and he understand ALL! I attack Ligue, capture ships, some of them I dismiss, some go against syms and defeat them compleatly. Then I bombard his Lair and destroy them. Why you said about hundreds of ships? Only 11 is enought, because I attack part of syms every turns. I sell for guild all my resourses, I dismiss all my groun forces, but I DESTROYED simbiots - it is most importans goal. Of course all my money went for mantenance of ships, and I dismiss most part of them, when I destroy sims. But Galaxy free! Syms no more here!
I not agree with rules - it is a not rules! It is for weak girls and not for strong mans!
Well, since the AI is pretty pathetic, some people thought it would be a good idea to implement House Rules to not take advantage of the weak AI.

When you think about it, the AI should declare war on anybody entering their orbital space with loaded transports unless they are allied (I think someone already mentioned that). But they don't, and then you'd think that if you landed combat troops on Leagueheim or Holy Terra, that they would declare war on you, but they don't. Then, you'd think that if you were amassing stacks of military units next to unguarded space ships, that they would declare war on you, but they don't.

I could go on and on, but I think you see my point. In single-player games, a lot of people decide to not exploit the weak AI so the game is more challenging. I've tried with Hyperion to make the AI at least build similar units and put up a fight (and it looks like at least tkobo was having a lot of fun there for a while) with the Epochs, but they are still lame.

You can also reload the game if you make a mistake, but a lot of people decide not to do that either. In single-player it is a choice, but in multi-player it is very important that players do not replay their turns, although I'm sure people have reloaded in multi-player games before and in EFS there is no way of knowing.

So these rules are set up to try to establish an honor system by which players play to help establish "fairness" in play.

In PBEM games, Li Halan has a large advantage when they share planets with other players because they go first. If you look at some of the House Rules for It's War! (a Nova Scenario), players are not allowed to sell maps to the Vau.

Typically in Hyperion games, selling maps to the Vau is okay, even on shared planets. It is really what the players as a whole decide on with respect to the rules, but they are meant to prevent players from gaining an unfair advantage, which sounds like a great idea to me.

Its a video game, not a Gladiatorial bout.

The rules are designed to make a Human vs Human PBEM game fair and consistent. Its designed to keep people from gaining unfair advantages over eachother.
Right!

Really?! I am newer, Newer, NEWER attack humans in beginning! Also. Everybody make it too and I agree with this. If they dont want do it - it is problem of them and for them! I begin War against human in 40 or 50 turn - not early! And I protect them for syms! And I never be agree with rules of Nova. But I am honest man and I give chances for all. Also, what you said about unfair advantage? It is dont easy capture ships of Liga - Are You see great army of improved units, which protect them? May be you make attempt to attack them? Ha-Ha-Ha. My army have loses 90% of quantity!
It does not matter if you attack humans or not, the fact is that you have a lot more ships than anyone else. The same can be said for Ministries, some people think they unbalance the game and that is why there is a rule to abstain during the first election. In Hyperion games, though, voting during the first election is usually allowed and, in fact, encouraged to deal with the Symbiots.

How do you get them to do something? I've not had a game where they ever get past stigmata, ever. Least in this version of hyperion... earlier ones they were god awful. I just kinda step on them every once in a whie if they somehow get to stigmata. (never even ran the garrision, and took 6 elections for anyone to get elected on average...)
Yes - they seem to be not as tough as they once were, don't worry tough Symbiots are coming (at least the Butchers and Reavers have been improved as the ships are already tough enough).

You guys do something to make them more aggressive? I'd be nice for more of a challenge.

Gott, look in the dat/unit dat file and see what the sym build time is(Turns2Bld).

The lower that is, the more aggressive the syms are(or at least it always seems that way to me).
I am guessing that as the number of syms increases ,so does thier need/want to expand.

In the last Hyp download i had,the Turns2Bld was 1 turn.That means that the syms can build any unit they want in only 1 turn.

They spread like crazy with this setting eveytime i played it.When I started to raise the build time,they always seemed to get less agressive.
Right, but I put the "real" build times in because people were complaining about there being too many of them.

I'll look at the Symbiots some more and see if I want to beef them up a little more, although their statistics are adapted to their "technology level".

Anyway, work permitting, I'll have a new Hyperion release this weekend.

Matt
Matt


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