the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

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Test
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the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Test » Sun Aug 05, 2001 8:47 am

eh...I ran across this interesting paradox.<P>The Imperial Mint on B2 is the only place in the Known Worlds that can mint Firebirds. You need a cyclotron and a rare alloy found only on B2 to make them. The Mint has been shut-down since Vladimir's death..and Alexis has just started with the idea of minting more Firebirds.<P>That would mean you only had a fixed amount of Firebirds in the galaxy...which would also mean that Firebirds would be at a fixed amount through-out the Emperor Wars.<P>What exactly would that do to an economy?<P>You cannot just grab Fbs out of the air from the markets and agoras?
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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Deathifier » Sun Aug 05, 2001 2:34 pm

You'd need a degree in economics and the ability to work out where all the money was and how it flowed around.<P>I assume it would mean that the league has very deep pockets for firebirds, and that their buying and selling would drive the overall economy - they buy goods that peasants on the various worlds make, and sell them for a profit elsewhere. In turn the peasants use the money they get to pay taxes to their masters, who in turn use that to purchase more goods from the league.<P>Now since the league has a fixed supply of firebirds it would simply limit the total amount of cargo they can ship around at any one point, driving up prices for the goods that they cannot carry (well something like that).<P>EFS doesn't do a good job of modelling it though :)<P>Now maybe someone who knows more about economics can pitch an answer in.<P>- Deathifier

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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Haakon_Stormbrow » Sun Aug 05, 2001 7:14 pm

The only problem i see with your analysis is that if the league makes money on every trip they would soon have all the money in the galaxy. <BR>This would be a 0 inflation economy. What exactly that would mean im not sure, but i would think that prices on goods would remain fairly constant. <BR>The only way could see it would work is if there is also a lot of bartering.
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Test
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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Test » Sun Aug 05, 2001 11:55 pm

yeah that's the way I initially saw it...the League eventually ends up with all of the Firebirds...the League pretty much does all of the trading. <P>They go to one world give a peasant 1 firebird for his goods and sells him for two firebirds of someone else's goods.<P>Eventually the peasant runs out of firebirds and the League has all of them.<P>Sure the Houses take a cut for taxes and tariffs...but it not like the Houses are going to be throwing firebirds at peasants.<P>It would seem like eventually the peasants run out of money and have to barter for everything...that means firebirds stop going into the House coffers eventually too.<P>When I break this down with a simple model of just a few peasants one House and League traders...the league ends up with all of the Firebirds..and quick like.<P>For instance...say you have 12 total firebirds in the world. Two peasants have 2 fbs, the House has 2 fbs, and the League has 6 fbs.<P>Peasant A makes food...sells 10 food to the league for 1 fb. Peasant B makes iron sells 10 iron to league for 1 fb.<P>When the league makes the trade from A to B at 2 fbs. That leaves the peasants with one firebird each. They of course will pay a tax with that..leaving them with nothing.<P>The league now has 8 Fbs...The House has 4 fbs. <P>Say the peasants now have to barter 10 food for ten iron direct. Where is their tax money going to come from?<P><BR>If the house does anything they have to spend firebirds on the league...
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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Deathifier » Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:13 am

Yeah I kinda realised later that the league would eventually end up with all the firebirds :)<P>I somehow don't thing the FS universe was designed with economics in mind, it's like "hey we have to have currency, lets call it firebirds!" and it sorta got thrown in.<BR>Still, I don't think many games actually have a proper economic model, some online RPG's have tried with limited success, most single player/multiplayer games just have "you mine this, you get cash" (eg C&C series, who keeps buying ALL the stuff you mine/refine!?).<P>I suppose if the line about the imperial mint being shut down was omitted then EFS economics would be less interesting, someone has to have a more detailed/in-depth answer though...<P>- Deathifier

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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Rich Trup » Mon Aug 06, 2001 5:15 pm

I'm no economist, but what you'd actually get would be a DEflationary economy. The classic definition of an inflationary ecomomy is too much money chasing too few goods. Since money is plentiful and goods are scarce, prices rise so that money has less buying power. Here the situation would be reversed, money scarce and goods plentiful. Prices would fall, and thus money would rise in value.<P>The situation would be similar to colonial America, in which a shortage of coinage was a real problem. Some of the same expedients would be used: barter, importing of "foreign" currency, cutting up existing currency into smaller pieces. Pretty soon you'd be dealing in quarter-Firebirds. That, by the way, is the origin of the American phrase "two bits" referring to a quarter dollar. Spanish Dubloons (sp?) were cut into eight pieces and used as smaller value coins.<P>As an aside, every online dictionary I consulted to try to find the correct spelling of "Dubloon" seems to require one to know the spelling of a word in order to look it up!

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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Haakon_Stormbrow » Mon Aug 06, 2001 5:56 pm

I guess i was assuming that the galactic production would remain constant, that would cause zero inflation. But if the GGP (gross galactic product) were increasing due to more cities being built and more stuff being made, there would be a deflationary economy. The same amount of money would exist to buy more and more goods. So really you would end up with the "half way there" paradox. You would spend less and less money each time you bought stuff till you are using quarter firebirds, then eigth firebirds. etc.<P>Also, Didn't serfs work the knights or lords land and pay their taxes in product. And miners and such would have worked for the lord. In efs it alludes the minor nobles owning companies and such. I would think that the lords pay some type of salary to the peasants, so they do have an inflow of money.<P>That being said i still don't see how the league does not end up with all the money. Unless they keep track of how much they have electronically and reissue the firebirds back out to venturists creating more wealth. This could be the method for monetary inflation in the efs universe.
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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Chuck » Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:54 am

I don't know that much about the EFS Universe, but it seems likely that the league would only handle interplanetary trade. Self-sufficient planets would have not need the league to transport goods. In addition, local trade would be handled by local merchants- if there were any. <BR>The EFS social system is feudalistic. A limited supply of money would not necessarily be deflationary because total production would hardly ever increase- except by temporary and natural means (i.e. good crop.) The increase would be counterbalanced by periodic famines and plagues, warfare, and natural disasters.<BR>Explaining how the league doesn't end up with all the money is difficult, but I can think of one probable explanation. One, because the league is made up of separate guilds, competitions between the guilds creates a steady stream of firebirds from the league to other organizations and people. The again it could explain the league’s need to acquire an so many firebirds before it can declare another republic.

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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Deathifier » Tue Aug 07, 2001 10:18 am

What if you can't split a firebird?<P>If you cut one up it would no longer be recognised as imperial currentcy and no longer be accepted outside your town/city/planet/house.<P>Would the league and other houses readily accept to carving it up?<BR>The league is the most important as it's the major trading body...<P>Rich: You need a spell checker, not a dictionary :)<P>- Deathifier

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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Test » Thu Aug 09, 2001 4:05 am

ah I found it in the Player's Companion book.<P>The Firebird is actually made to be broken up into halves-Crests and quarters-Wings.<P>I guess after you break them up its pretty much broken?<P>Apparently every House and the Fiefs there within mint their own currencies... Criticorum is supposed to have 500+ currencies on its own..holy what nightmare to model in a computer game.<P>No wonder they lumped everything into FBs! <P>Ok..so you have all of this currency floating around that is useless outside of the planet...Does that mean you will still have a deflationatory ( is that a word ... ) economy? As far as FBs are concerned..or do FBs themselves turn more so into a commodity that makes galatic trade possible?<P>I mean if your house needs 5000 tons of goods from across the galaxy and you don't have the FBs to get them... its not like your going to ship them 10000 tons of cow to barter?<P>Does that mean your going to trade with someone specifically to get Fbs so that you can more easily trade for inter-galatic goods?
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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Chuck » Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:59 am

I guess thats where the league comes in. It seems likely that actual firebirds wont be tranported in space unless there was a dire need or the mint was fulling a request. Without an emperor or a regeant capable of protecting the shipment, its likely that firebirds are two precious to transport with a civil war going on.

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Re: the Imperial Mint Firebirds question

Postby Shocker » Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:23 am

No where did anyone assume that the League has expenses. The merchants have desires. Luxuries cost money. So does maintaining jump gate engines. Pirates rob shipments. Customs and warehouses need guards.<P>Then politically, the League would become a rich target if they accumulated vast wealth disproportionate to their benefit to society. Such imbalance would cause economic collapse (Russia) or civil war (France).
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