Multiplayer -lets make things interesting

[Lothgoradin]

Why should we limit the number of players in a multiplayer game to 5. Why should we limit what can be played? Why should we limit how many units can be used? Why are these options limited in most games? Why? WHy? Why?

I say f*ck the "why?"!

One reason games like Civ II, EFS, and others of their kind are limited is because the graphics file has a set size, a set area where each picture is supposed to be. Why do that?

Have each unit have a 2 digit number with a corresponding alphanumeric code (from 0 - 9, then A-Z) for the unit file it reads from. Each of these also has an alphabetic code that tells it which slot in said unit file in said number for which actual unit it is.
E.g: IN EFS now, create a Kraken unit. Naval Symbiot unit that uses the Grappler Icon. (Due to a system crash, I have to reDL EFS, so I am not sure if it is Unit 0 or not, but I think it is) This unit is Symbiot, and Symbiot is, say, unit file 7. This would read as 700B (A is the Grappler). To save the pictures as bitmaps seems a little overkill to me. You still get good quality from jpeg files, so a 100 pixel square file is not 30 Kb, it is only 7 Kb. Saves a lot of room. Offers a lot more room to put things on, in and around the program.

To fix the problem of a set number of players, each units file has an alphanumeric code, a house or player file would tell the program to read a specific unit file for said house. Same for the city and tech files and anything else that might be needed to customize. This would allow the game designer to make symbiots, vau, li-halan, hazat, stigmata, the fleet, and the imperial guard. They can tell the game who gets to be played by human and who does not, and leave out the church and league if they want.

Now for the truly inovative part. We have had PBEM games. We have had simultaneous play. We have had hotseat and solo games. Now comes a simulturn play. More players is not neccessarily a slowdown, because all players take their turns simultaneously. The host compiles them and sends them back out as the game creates a save file for each individual. There are a few things to be worked out, such as, what if two people interact in a turn, what happens then? Well, for those of you who want added realism, as the ruler of a galactic, or even planetary government, you do not have complete access to everything or all of your units as events happen. Therefore, the computer (which will have decent AI) will decide reasonably what happens when the units act not as the players expect them to. Size of the file is a problem too. without compression, i figure on more than 4 MB for just a galaxy without units, cities, or resource marker of any kind. slightly smaller for galaxies with less systems and planets/system. not by much though. Figure winzip cuts files in half, any compression on that narrow of a scale has gotta be able to cut it smaller. maybe 400 - 500 Kb or so.

And as for your AI, I don't want AI to take the place of a player in an email game, I want a player to take the place of the computer in a solo game. The ONLY thing about Multiplayer games will be improved diplomacy, if I can get this to work right. this is due to the fact that even True AI can't match a human for diplomatic purposes, even given state-of-the-art tools to work with.

On top of this, All of this that I am typing is from my scattered notes and my head, as my computer and the half completed dat files that were on them are no longer on them. Y'all have no idea how much that annoys me. I spent almost every available hour I had off from work typing them damn things in and now I gotta redo it. And m wife can't help me as she is a lousy typist and has our son to deal with most of the day. At least I got it all in written format in my notebook. (work gets boring, I gotta have somethin to do) BTW, its a spiral Notebook, the kind with paper, not a computer notebook, but thats coming soon. I just ordered it. And it has Linux on it. So i wont lose everything again.

The Darkmage is Rising
Jakkan

[Macroz]

Why? Because it's a lot easier to develop a limited system. Limitations like max 256 different units are unfortunate but save memory. Having 2 digit numbers is not the right solution IMO, go for real strings.

JPEGs for lossy compression, not for icons. PNG would be a solution.

Your PBEM idea sounds like what's been around since VGA Planets (and Combat Mission) which was discussed briefly here too about a year ago. The more these things you bring the further you go from EFS though

[Deathifier]

Why are these options limited in most games? Why? WHy? Why?

As Macroz has already said, it's easier.
Some things save memory, some things put an upper bound on algorithm running costs, and the underlying code is easier to test (can be less robust as it doesn't need to handle *every* possible combo).

Limits are in commercial games because doing things the hard way costs money, money to design, money to build, money to test. We don't have that money limitation thankfully

Have each unit have a 2 digit number with a corresponding alphanumeric code (from 0 - 9, then A-Z) for the unit file it reads from. Each of these also has an alphabetic code that tells it which slot in said unit file in said number for which actual unit it is.

Why do you need codes and slots? Why not do away with them completely and treat the unit, tech, etc files as flat-file DB's. It increases the redundancy of options a little (for example two similar ships still need to have all the flags duplicated) however it also increases flexibility.

I do like the idea of making house-specific files though, this might be a good alternative to flags which specify which house can use what. However all you need in those files are line references to the *real* files, and those references can be arbitrarily long (who's to say someone isn't going to make 2 million units?). Some header info might be needed too, or it might not.

To save the pictures as bitmaps seems a little overkill to me. You still get good quality from jpeg files, so a 100 pixel square file is not 30 Kb, it is only 7 Kb. Saves a lot of room.

I agree with Macroz here, you do not want lossless compression with such small sized images - you want to conserve as much detail as possible. PNG would be best for this.

Now for the truly inovative part. We have had PBEM games. We have had simultaneous play. We have had hotseat and solo games. Now comes a simulturn play.

You're a little bit late
Macroz brought up this point sometime ago, and as I recall we argued about it the same as we argued about changing the graphics display and a couple of other things
May not have been on the forums though, IIRC it was in an IRC chat (both main ones are archived in threads here).

Ironically the argument wasn't about how good the system was, but how it would fit into the EFS play style. This along with a couple of other big points sparked the "Change: How much?" thread, as implementing it really changes the dynamics of the game. Combat resolution in your turn is gone, reactions to unexpected events have to be delayed for a turn (like two armies meeting up unexpectedly), even movement as we know it is gone. It's a massive change, and not one EFS players seem to want (and implementing both systems in the one engine is asking a bit much IMO).

And as for your AI, I don't want AI to take the place of a player in an email game, I want a player to take the place of the computer in a solo game.

I think I agree here, as I see it the improved AI is there to make the current non-player groups more intelligent and less of a push-over. That same AI can then be used to make single player games much more interesting - a lot of people love EFS, and love the Mods, far less are able to make the extreme long term commitment that a PBEM game requires.

The AI alone is a major project though, and done in certain ways can be made totally independant of the main engine (so it has little to no influence on engine design).
Be concerned about the AI once you have the main engine operational, and keep in mind that even the best super-computer driven AI's tailored to full state info, deterministic games (chess) have trouble beating the best humans. You are right about AI diplomacy though, it's quite a tricky problem

Good to see all the ideas being thrown around though!

- Deathifier

[Russell]

"Why should we limit the number of players in a multiplayer game to 5."

Actually, that is an interesting point. Most people would still play with 5, but it would definately be cool to have players be able to control the Vau, Symbiots, Church, or League. It would be out of the norm, but it would make things more interesting...

[mikegamer]

I agree that changing this to a simultaneous move game would make a large change in the fell of the game. I don't like simove games that is one of the reasons I keep playing this game long after it is no longer supported by the Mfg. I would like to see one or two more players added to the posibilities.

If we make it so that a player can play the league he sould have some different victory conditions based more on his trading abilites or ability to corner the market in some comidity like singularities. That would make things very interesting.

[Saarud]

I think simultanous turns (or simulturns as Jakkan says) would be the best. It is really not that different and in many ways more fair and correct than turn based.

I would like to see other than the 5 major Houses also 5 Church sects and 5 Merchant guilds all controlled by players. Having the traditional turnbase game it is not really practical with more than 6 or so players as PBeM would take far to long time to play.

Now well that is what I am thinking anyway.

ps I did started on a EFS clone myself using just Visual Basic some years ago. I might just continue my work as I feel a big urge for EFS again.

[Lothgoradin]

Don't get me wrong, I like the Email games too. And for a truly modable game (as I keep stressing I am trying to make) multiple options need to be available. That is why I would like to have the Simulturn, Solo, Hotseat, Email and Realtime play options available. And any other options I can come up with. I also want to include a Scenario and Mod/Randomizer Program available within the game. One that will allow one to FULLY modify any aspect he or she wishes.

The Darkmage has Risen
Jakkan

[Deathifier]

Simultaneous turns are fine for LAN, or in rare cases where you can get everyone connected at the same time. It's mostly the way it changes PBEM if you try to apply it there.

In such a situation you have to split the order and execution phases, and doing so is where the major change to mechanics works.

IMO you may find that simulturn will become and option for solo games more than LAN games - much as it is in Civ2 for example. I suggest that of the various methods of play the focus should be on solo single-turn and then PBEM as those are the modes people, at least the existing userbase, are going to want

An editor would be expected, you may be able to take the current EFS editor(s) and adapt them to the new project as well - might save a lot of time if it's possible.

- Deathifier

[Macroz]

Sounds so familiar... megalomania and talk about a generic framework for everything . Been there, failed to do it

Ability to modify the game comes from the fact that the engine is available to modders and not just how much they can change. If there is source, there is infinite possibilities. If some consideration is taken at certain points, it gets easier. Editing data that is in reasonable formats is naturally a must and perhaps you should integrate the editor into the game (for item placement, terrain editing, no need for changing attack values or so that is ok in your text editor of choice).

As for the turn structure, like Deathifier suggested single player and PBEM should receive the most focus. For my future stuff I think separate planning and execution a la VGA Planets is the only way to go (barring a 24/7 online server) but to make things simple and EFS-like I would suggest the regular turn based. You could make the simultaneous play an option but you will need a reasonable conflict resolution protocol or you will force people to play at the same time connected to a central server.

[Saarud]

Having some experiance myself I would say that a hobby project like this should focus on multiplayer and specifically PBeM and Hotseat. Making AIs for single player game out of an advanced strategy game such as EFS is no easy task at all and I would advice very strongly against it. Atleast first make a decent game with open well documented source code and let anyone who wants the challenge try to make their own AI.

[Lothgoradin]

Unless I make some money off of this game or another, then I will not be able to get a 24/7 online server. However, that is in the works. I will try to make the real time multiplayer more like Civ II (with a master and slave system) so a server is not needed, just that everyone has to have the game with the same format or there will be a sh*tload of errors. As for modability, the engine used in the original EFS is a brilliant way to do things, however, it just needs to evolve. Seriously Evolve. Most games I have seen are graphics (or in the case of action/platforms, levels) with a story and game thrown around them. I want to make the storyline, and the dat files and buoild the game around them, not the other way around as it has been done for so long. I am working on a revolutionary graphics reader/editor that will make programming 2d and 3d much easier. BTW, do we want 2d or 3d? As for the AI challenge, an advanced version of Civ II AI (It only has 3 options to tell the game how a player reacts, I want many more - See AI post) As for an ETA....I have no idea, mechanics are coming together, but as for a finished product or even a playable version, I don't know. I don't like deadlines, I don't like having to rush. I don't want thiss to be a slapped together job like most other games and programs. And if I get ahold of a Lindows system, I want to make it Lindows/Windows cross compatable too. But that might be a job for someone else once we get it out. If you didn't get the above, if I do set a deadline, I either have it ready and am tweaking a few things, or it's ready and I just feel like setting a release date.

Also a minor problem: Size.
To make this properly, I am not going to pull any strings, take no shortcuts that might affect gameplay, stability or anything similar. Therefore, it is going to be big. I can make it available in a number of small packages or one big (very big) package. But then I need a site allowing me damn near unlimited bandwidth and a lot of space to upload it (and it will take awhile to upload, I have a VERY slow connection). However, for those of you who cannot or choose not to download it, I will make it available for mailing. However, as much as I hate to ask for money from the EFS community, whoever gets a copy mailed to them will have to pay shipping and at least cost of CD. But I am sure most of you won't have a problem with this.

I would leave more, but I am on my lunch break and my boss is already up my *ss about damn near everything.

The Darkmages are Rising
Jakkan
Lovyan
Bannor
Bryenna
Crynax
Onyx
Thanatos
Bowhunter

Told ya I had a small team :p

[Shocker]

There have been many games that started out fun and ended up evolving to a worse state than original.

The reason is losing focus on game play and instead, getting lost in technology or features.

HOMM IV is one example. It is not fun anymore.

Any redesign needs to start with what makes EFS fun to play despite the bugs, bad AI, and lack of support.

Coolness wears off in an hour and curiousity about the next tech or planet wears thin if the activities in between are not fun.

What made you all play EFS for 4-5 years?

Answer that question, then the hotseat vs PBEM vs whatever questions will answer themselves.

So will just about every other question you have about making/evolving this game.

- Shocker.