Planet testing

all the talk around the remake

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Macroz
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Planet testing

Postby Macroz » Wed Jul 03, 2002 3:10 pm

In the first IRC meeting I said I would test a 3d-view to planets when the summer comes. Well, since Sunday, I now have the first version of such a test that enables viewing of a generated planet and moving units on it (with the simultaneous planning -model).

The approach is two-fold: there is a prettier mode for just looking at the planet (admiring the view so to speak) and then a so called "flashlight" mode which gives a more playable view to controlling the units and all (controlled by spacebar in the test). I imagine the user being some day able to make any number of such "visual modes" and customize them to suit him best and then easily toggle between them.

The test requires a 3d-accelerator with OpenGL drivers. 32 megabytes of video memory is currently required for it to be fast (largeish texures and 1024x768 resolution), so don't bother with less (unless you are particularly adventurous). Otherwise it should run fine on a lesser machine (slowest tested is a 750 Mhz Athlon with GF2 MX which just basically increases startup time). In Linux also some external libraries are required that are not distributed but are commonly available (if problems, contact me).
</font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Take it as a concept test, it's not extremely polished and the graphics are just programmer art with unit pictures captured from EFS :D .

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Re: Planet testing

Postby Deathifier » Sat Jul 06, 2002 3:58 pm

Very interesting, looks nice and pretty :)

I have two concerns with it though - it takes forever to load (warcraft 3 loads faster than that...) and whilst it looks nice actually using that view to move things around on would be troublesome.

Ignoring for now the auto-goto-next-unit feature, it would be far too easy to miss things - such as enemy units rolling up to your factories on the other side of the planet :)

You could offset that with a mini-map of some sort, however even with that moving things around might be tricky (the unit selection/movement didn't work, well a little red dot appeared half a screen above where I clicked). I'd need to be able to select and plan paths for units (they don't have to move though) to see how it would actually play like :)

Not something that would probably used for the actual EFS clone (too much a departure from the current system) but very interesting in itself (and since the engine is 3D based, it *may* be able to support both systems).

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Re: Planet testing

Postby Macroz » Sat Jul 06, 2002 4:56 pm

I have two concerns with it though - it takes forever to load (warcraft 3 loads faster than that...)
It happens to generate the textures for the planet and space (which takes 38 seconds on my Athlon XP 1800+ and seems to take 86 seconds on a 750 Mhz Athlon so scales linearly to clockspeed).

If put to use the textures would be cached in memory and files but, when a new game is begun, the textures do need to be generated. That takes time and space (well compared to 2 gigs of Neverwinter Nights this is peanuts). In fact, this is the only technical limitation there is. The generation is not thoroughly optimized and quality may be compromised to speed it up. Also there may be better ways to generate the textures.

(the unit selection/movement didn't work, well a little red dot appeared half a screen above where I clicked)
It has so far worked with four machines (two tested with both Linux and Windows) without a problem. Could you give me some specs of your machine? There were mouse problems with older SDL versions and fullscreen in Windows but I upgraded to the latest version which has removed them for me (and that version is included in the test).

And, honestly, the moving of units and rotating around the planet works far better than in EFS where you cannot even view half of the planet in same view (the planet view is worthless due to low res). It's much much faster and smoother to scroll around the world compared to the 'right-clicking' in Civ based games (remember to zoom out to speed up the rotation speed).

The pathing (and moving) works very well IMHO, hope you get to see it some day too ;) .

Certainly an optional minimap.

Btw. there certainly is no reason (except lazyness) why the game logic couldn't work irrespective of the display technology. In fact the AI-pathing routines I have in the test do so now.

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Re: Planet testing

Postby Deathifier » Sun Jul 07, 2002 9:28 am

It happens to generate the textures for the planet and space (which takes 38 seconds on my Athlon XP 1800+ and seems to take 86 seconds on a 750 Mhz Athlon so scales linearly to clockspeed).

If put to use the textures would be cached in memory and files but, when a new game is begun, the textures do need to be generated.
Ah the old speed vs size debate, well it took just over a minute on my P3-800. How large are the generated textures?

As for the mouse troubles, I found out what it's doing - that dot is where it thinks I'm selecting.
Depending on the zoom level, that dot is either 1/4 to almost a full screen above where I actually clicked. I can select stuff if I zoom in, and move it when I zoom back out (the zooming is dodgy as well, it doesn't seem to always work - seems like it buffers the mousewheel turns then applies them all at once).

You are right that it is really quick and easy to select and move something (at least arbitrarily) however I still have concerns with how it will work in a gameplay environment. Still, I doubt people want to depart from the current EFS method.

And, honestly, the moving of units and rotating around the planet works far better than in EFS where you cannot even view half of the planet in same view
True, the EFS view is very narrow, however in comparison your view is also narrow - only the central band provides full information on unit location, units on the peripheral simply give you a "I'm over here" info - unless you happened to remember precisely where it was you couldn't just click, move.

Also, zoomed out, it suffers similar to the EFS world-view - localised information would become difficult to discern, especially since your current hexes seem rather big (what are the dimensions?).

The last thing is more technical related, is the top of the planet supposed to be cut-off? :)

Edit: System specs are at:
http://www.twarriors.com/articles/profiles/deathifier.html

- Deathifier
(Who's machine breaks most in-production software, including his own).

<small>[ 07-07-2002, 09:38: Message edited by: Deathifier ]</small>

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Re: Planet testing

Postby Deathifier » Sun Jul 07, 2002 9:37 am

Ah, right, it's windowed mode that is buggering most of it up. Selection works (mostly, some units don't get selected) in full-screen mode :)

And now that I can see it better, the hexes are ok, though when zoomed out (such that the whole planet is viewable) things still get a bit blurry and I imagine smaller markers, such as resources, would be difficult to discern unless zoomed in (giving what I think is equivalent to the view of EFS...).

The only major benefit I see in the system is the rapid view-movement around the world :)

It does look nice though.

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Re: Planet testing

Postby Macroz » Sun Jul 07, 2002 3:04 pm

Ah the old speed vs size debate, well it took just over a minute on my P3-800. How large are the generated textures?
There's the terrain texture which is 1024x1024 RGB texture and takes most time to generate and also the cloud texture which is a 1024x1024 RGBA texture. I tested caching these yesterday and then this becomes a non-issue if you have the time to generate them once in the first place (and disk space to store the results).

Other tasks have not been optimized and could also use a speedup besides in real use they are only done once starting the program and not when viewing a planet.

The last thing is more technical related, is the top of the planet supposed to be cut-off?
Ah, right, it's windowed mode that is buggering most of it up.
Hmm... your machine doesn't seem like anything unusual and I assume you have rather new drivers for your MX installed? You did not change the window size, did you? This does not work yet and would screw the system. Also having less than 1024x768 as desktop resolution when running in windowed. The only prob I can see would be Win 2K if anything.

And the top of the planet definitely should not be cut.

True, the EFS view is very narrow, however in comparison your view is also narrow - only the central band provides full information on unit location, units on the peripheral simply give you a "I'm over here" info - unless you happened to remember precisely where it was you couldn't just click, move.
That's exactly what it's supposed to give. And once you have something selected you can easily scroll around to move it to the other side. The view isn't that narrow really, only if you zoom it to EFS comparable levels which is mostly not useful. It is possible to make a planar view of the sphere but this produces large distortions in the poles (which is exactly why there are no poles in EFS or Civs).

Selection works (mostly, some units don't get selected) in full-screen mode
Currently you don't actually select units but the terrain underneath. When there is a unit in that place it gets selected. I admit this can be confusing but it's just a temporary solution anyway. Also the test doesn't really support multiple units in one place. The unit is arbitarily selected from that place so it's possible to not have the topmost unit selected. Multiple selection is not yet done.

(the zooming is dodgy as well, it doesn't seem to always work - seems like it buffers the mousewheel turns then applies them all at once)
Hmm... I remember having this problem some time ago in the spring with my other software but it vanished. Perhaps when I had to reinstall Windows when my last machine died. Most likely a driver problem.

Also, zoomed out, it suffers similar to the EFS world-view - localised information would become difficult to discern, especially since your current hexes seem rather big (what are the dimensions?)
Not as difficult because the resolution is better but this would also apply to the clone.

There are about 3k positions which makes for a bit larger than 50x50 terrain. I'm pretty sure we don't want those planets Civ sized.

You are right that it is really quick and easy to select and move something (at least arbitrarily) however I still have concerns with how it will work in a gameplay environment. Still, I doubt people want to depart from the current EFS method.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure people wont be interested but that doesn't stop me especially as there is hardly anything else to code ;) . As a side note, perhaps we should hold a new IRC session?

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Re: Planet testing

Postby ladner » Fri May 02, 2003 3:22 am

Macroz-

downloaded your planet test very interesting, definitely a departure when compared to other 4x games. I like the clouds, that adds the potential for weather and other realistic effects.

On the Matrix forums I go by a different screen name (gfish22), but I have a greater appreciation for your efforts after reading through this forum and sampling your work first hand.

On thing though, your encouraging words from your last post on the Matrix Forums and some additional encouragement from a colleague at work, whom is a very good programmer have spurred me to actual try a small project.

I think my first game though will be something fairly simple, maybe a Tetris clone. This is probably not a very original idea, but many of the web-sites that I have seen for how to start game programming recommend this as a starting point.

Lastly I wish all here the best of luck with clone project. For now I can only offer words of encouragement, once I actually finish some small projects of my own and hone my C++ skills I may come back and offer some programming help.

<small>[ 02.05.2003, 03:23: Message edited by: ladner ]</small>

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Re: Planet testing

Postby Macroz » Fri May 02, 2003 2:02 pm

Once I had added the atmosphere I could not resist adding clouds :) .

Starting small is the right thing but, if you get bored with the Tetris, you could do something like a combat simulator that recreates the EFS combats. I spent a couple days last week writing an economy simulation but it turned out to be quite complex and is not ready. Such models are very important in any strategy game and don't need fancy graphics. Depending what you know it could be simply what you have done for work most of your life ... business logic as the model, databases for storage, visuals with thin web UIs.

Don't know how many threads you read here but they contain a wealth of useful and interesting information. Some good sources for game programming related stuff are flipcode and GameDev.net. You can also contact me, I'm always open for any programming related questions.

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Re: Planet testing

Postby ladner » Sat May 03, 2003 12:08 am

Macroz-

I responded back to your reply on the Matrix Games forums, but you and I seem to share the same vision for how a remake should be done. It would probably be best to discuss that vision here.

Of course I don't mind discussing things on the Matrix Forum if it influences the right people there. Such as the Noble Armada devlopers and the folks at Holistic Design.

Now getting back to the vision.

With respect to units, for simplicity's sake I would keep the equipment homogeneous for a Unit.

However, for units it would not be like traditional EFS were you build infantry, Assualt Legions etc. To keep things simple I am just going to stick to leg ground units

class UnitClass
{
int unitClassID[];
int men;
int raceID;
int weaponID[];
int armorID[];
int movementTypeID;
float movementRate;
float spot;
float camouflage;
float agility;
float psychicStrength;
float maintenance;
float size;
float cargoCapacity;
int loyalty;


};


int unitClassID[5]
unitClassID[0] = 1 // noble
unitClassID[1] = 2 // specialist i.e. officer, spy, knight
unitClassID[2] = 3 // militia or peasants
unitClassID[3] = 4 // regular army
unitClassID[4] = 5 // special forces

int weaponID[5]
weaponID[0] = 1 // club
weaponID[1] = 2 // primative ballistic weapon (slug thrower in FS terminology)
weaponID[2] = 3 // advanced automatic ballistic
weaponID[3] = 4 // blaster rifle
weaponID[4] = 5 // fusion rifle

int armorID[5]
armorID[0] = 1 // none
armorID[1] = 2 // bullet proof vest
armorID[2] = 3 // composite armor
armorID[3] = 4 // ceramsteel armor
armorID[4] = 5 // powered ceramsteel armor

Only since it has been a while it is now tricky for me to do this properly. And I'll be honest I have mostly been doing work in SQL and VB, and the VB is primarily GUI devlopment for database applications in MS Access so the C skills are very rusty. But if I am ever to help out with this project constructively I'll have to work on my skills. So the hard part (for me at least) will be linking the actual names based upon the armorID, weaponID, and unitClassID.

example regular infantry of EFS

unitClassID[3]
armorID[2]
weaponID[2]

Okay my lousy code aside what I was hoping to demonstrate is that you would never buy "units" you would recruit men at varying levels of proficiency. The units name would be determined by the equipment being used.

Also, I think there should be restrictions on the type of equipment that could be used based upon the mens proficiency level. Yet one more knot to unravel. ;)


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