Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

all the talk around the remake

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Lothgoradin
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Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

Postby Lothgoradin » Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:34 am

What do we want to see from Combat in this game?

As for the best combat model I have seen... I haven't. I have seen aspects of models that are good, however.

EFS
Strengths:
Multiple Units in Combat (Most I have seen are One on One combat.)
Well rounded unit Abilities (Spot, Camo, Agility, Accuracy, Movement, Damage)
Multiple Attack types (There are 9, I think)

Weaknesses:
Watching Combat is used mainly to see which units died and which oned didn't. It needs more. My idea for this is very far-fetched, but it is (kinda) possible. Have any of you ever seen the making of The Two Towers? The program that they used for the major battle scene was nice. Each unit had its own AI, and acted as such. It wasn't mass movement of units, it was individual people moving. Something like that with the Combat Engine so that it is at least more interesting to watch. Maybe the ability for the attacker to join in on computer tactical errors (or to make tactical errors) The only problem is, if a battle takes 20 miutes for full armies to fight it out, then turns in an assault campaign, or a defense campaign could take forever.

I dont have time to get to the rest of it right now, but let me know what y'all think of this. And what y'all want.

The Darkmages are Rising
Jakkan

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Re: Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

Postby dexter » Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:13 pm

I do not know if this idea have been discussed but what I would like to see a sort of combat rounds. Instead of watching the stacks fight it out to the end with no control, how about individual rounds, select which units to participate in combat, if after too rounds where both side did not select any unit to participate in combat, the attacker has to withdraw to the originating hex and perhaps be subject to a "free" disengagement attack by the defender. I think the computer can be very good at making numerical calculation and the stack base combat as it is now is good. But I do wish we can have more "tactical" control in the stack combat.

Lothgoradin
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Re: Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

Postby Lothgoradin » Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:34 am

Again, I dont have much time so give me your most insane, outrageous, impossible ideas. Nothing is impossible. Some of it is improbable and difficult, but not impossible. Let me know what y'all think. I will throw my ideas out when I have the time.

The Darkmages are Rising
Jakkan

<small>[ 25-02-2003, 02:35: Message edited by: Jakkan ]</small>

Deathifier
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Re: Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

Postby Deathifier » Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:45 pm

Keep in mind if you deviate much from the current system you are going to have to adapt it for PBEM.

Which means anything real-time is out of the question, anything which takes user-input aside from the initial attack order might also be a problem - you don't want to delay the combat results till next turn, and users will not accept any form of AI making combat decisions for them :)

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Macroz
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Re: Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

Postby Macroz » Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:00 pm

I'm also of the opinion that e-mail games are very important so the battles must support them, no input in between is possible.

I would even go as far as suggesting dividing the turns into planning and execution like in Combat Mission, VGA Planets and Master of Orion vs. IGO-UGO like it is now in EFS and in Civilization since this enables all the players play their turn simultaneously and hence turns progress faster.

You could just make the combat as scriptable as possible but I suggest just make it a neat module so it can be tweaked if there is need for it. Replicating the current system is almost always a good start :) . Also if we want the end game to be smoothly playable then there must be less combats than there is now (and then those that remain could be made more detailed).

Russell
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Re: Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

Postby Russell » Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:41 pm

I would like to see more skirmishes, and less incredibly massive battles like there are now. Though this doesn't really involve the combat system, but perhaps camoflague could be greatly benefited in combat (right now it gives +3 agility, which seems kinda weak, a Ranger legion unspotted should be able to go toe to toe with other units, but gets decimated by DNA Assault Legions and Mega Tanks)

I would also like to see the combat style how it is right now. There should be an option about your strategy/formation/tactics before combat. Right now there are the different types of attacks, but I think only assault works. Perhaps knowledge of formations or tactics would have to be gained somehow...some type of strategist required.

Also, combat should be in PBEM form because it would be almost impossible to get 5 players to play the turn at the same time (It'd be interesting if players moved their units around on their turn, but nothing is changed, and then at the end of everyone's turn, everything is carried out, but that would be too complicated and would not work out very well)

Perhaps there should be different types of combat types. Skirmishes, battles, water battles or sieges. It'd definately be cool for structures to be heavily fortified, and attackers have to lay a siege to attack it, and an actual phase of combat between the structure/city (with defenders) vs attackers/artillery.

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Re: Combat Model - Let's Get Crackin'

Postby Grimly » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:02 am

I'd like to refer everyone to a sleeper classic, LEGION. The cool thing about this game (and the frustrating thing, too) is that once you unleash your army in battle mode you can't recall or redirect it. This creates a truly medieval/classical feel. And it's a concept that is compatible with the current EFS combat.

So I would side with the no-real-time judgment. Basically what our forefathers (those of us who are descended of Europeans!) did was to get into groups along a line and charge in waves, and that's somewhat like what we should see happening.

HOWEVER

The useless EFS combat report (turned off here since 1999) serves only to hide the action, in addition to boring us all to tears. What I would like to see is WHY and HOW one unit is better or worse than others. The separate rounds of different types of attacks is a crude way of giving us feedback. So by all means create a system that shows us these attacks but also makes clear what the advantages are: terrain effects, number of shots or sword attacks, air interdiction effects, officer/noble bonus, XP upgrades, etc etc etc. There seems no hope of reorganizing a combat in 2, let alone 3 dimensions without a tactical map---just throw them in and see what results.

The question is how? I really like imagining 3D planets rotating to show me where attacks have taken place, and then being able to consult a specific report for each of these combats. What I really hate is being forced to watch the same rigid sequence of combats every time I load or take a turn.
Grimly


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